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^ v
DaddyCatALSO says:
(Wed Dec 12 20:38:09 2018 [Edit/Delete]
Comma Sorry about your family's loss. At the committal for my mother, we were being shown tot he chairs next to the grave and my pregnant then-wife tripped and fell. My sister quipped "Anything for attention."

^ v
Agent Cooper says:
(Wed Dec 12 19:13:00 2018 [Edit/Delete]
Trivia Girl I: Rube Golddberg

Trivia Girl II: I dunno, was it "Pangs" ?

^ v
YayOfTheDay says:
(Wed Dec 12 14:32:37 2018 [Edit/Delete]
let's hear a great big bronze cheer for menomegirl!

yay menomegirl!

today's deadguy memorial angel wednesday question is brought to you by:

the sunnydale santa store

where are the scoobies celebrating christmas this year?

Happy Non-Angel Wednesday!

^ v
Trivia Girl says:
(Wed Dec 12 13:24:40 2018 [Edit/Delete]
Sunnydale's Double Trivial Pursuit

Category: Angel
Answer: Who does Doyle have a vision of at the end of 'The Batchelor Party'?

Category: Buffy
Question: IN what Buffy episode does Angel appear after the events of the 'Batchelor Party'?

^ v
TheBirthdayGnomette says:
(Wed Dec 12 13:12:30 2018 [Edit/Delete]
Today Wednesday, December 12th 2018 C.E.

We have SIX (6) Birthdays!

Movie Chick
Theda Bara

Happy Birthday from the Bronze, to Alicat, Ben, Chris, Movie Chick, Politesse, Theda Bara

We'd be dead. Can't get paid if you're dead. Mal, 'Serenity''

to be added to the birthday list, please email

^ v
lostinamerica says:
(Wed Dec 12 11:28:10 2018 [Edit/Delete]
Comma--Laughter has long been
a good way to deal with pain :)

I'm sorry for your loss :(

^ v
Comma says:
(Wed Dec 12 08:37:38 2018 [Edit/Delete]
Edited: Wed Dec 12 11:07:36 2018
This day, in 1985, still haunts me. A plane, returning from peace-keeping duties in Gaza, crashed, on takeoff, from Gander International Airport, Newfoundland, Canada. There were 248 101st Airborne troops on that plane. None would survive. Seventy-two hours later, I, along with 37 other 101st troops, would be in Canada. The same thing, over the next few days, played out over and over. The Canadians were loading the bodies into caskets. The caskets were driven to a empty hanger on the airfield. An American team would unload the caskets, carry it into a hanger, and place and American flag on it. I can't remember the exact number loaded onto each plane, but once it was reached, we carried the caskets, onto a C-141, and it took off for Andrews Air Force Base. The last plane load, I think that it was on 17 December, had seats, and space, for us to return to the US. The plane unloaded at Andrews, and we were carried back to Fort Campbell Airfield. It would take months for all the bodies to be identified. If my memory serves me, I believe that it was early May that the last body, after being identified, left Andrews. Unless refused, a 101st team escorted every soldier home.


^ v
Comma says:
(Wed Dec 12 06:01:35 2018 [Edit/Delete]
My side of the family has the strangest since of humor in the worst of times. When I gave the eulogy, at my Father's funeral, I said that there are three reasons that Dad is smiling down on us today 1. He is in heaven and the pain is gone. 2. He sees all of his family and friends gathered to say goodbye to him. 3. With Dad being half Scottish, and hated it when we spent anything on him, he is so happy that I didn't waste money on him a Father's Day card this year. My wife was horrified, while my Mother died laughing.

Today, while talking about the funeral home that the family had chosen for my daughter-n-law, Jon, my son, told me that they had the cheapest cremation prices. I just had to say, 'So I can cancel the Viking boat burning on the Cumberland?' My wife, as usual, was horrified, my son laughed so hard that coke flew out his nose, and my son's mother-n-law was laughing so hard that she couldn't walk.

For some reason I am not giving the eulogy for our daughter-n-law.


^ v
ChristopherMarlowe says:
(Wed Dec 12 04:57:53 2018 [Edit/Delete]
wolfguard You would have to be a glutton for punishment, I think. *g*

^ v
wolfguard says:
(Wed Dec 12 04:27:09 2018 [Edit/Delete]
Christopher Marlowe,

Being a COS is grueling work, especially if you don't mesh with the CO/CEO.


^ v
Dianne says:
(Wed Dec 12 04:04:57 2018 [Edit/Delete]
Thank you, Christopher Marlowe, white wings, and lostinamerica!

^ v
white wings says:
(Wed Dec 12 03:40:03 2018 [Edit/Delete]
Yay Dianne!

Happy Birthday Kestra Troi and Sachiel!

Christopher Marlowe - *choke* Wouldn't that be a meeting of the minds? ;-)

^ v
ChristopherMarlowe says:
(Wed Dec 12 02:37:26 2018 [Edit/Delete]
wolfguard Have you thought about applying to be Chief of Staff? They appear to be hiring!

^ v
ChristopherMarlowe says:
(Wed Dec 12 01:36:12 2018 [Edit/Delete]
Agent Cooper I forgot to post the trivia question on my way to work. At least I got the birthdays done!

^ v
Agent Cooper says:
(Tue Dec 11 15:06:44 2018 [Edit/Delete]
Trivia Girl: I hope Notsoshygirl didn't "googol" that answer.


Deadguy Tuesday QOD: Probably "Silent Night" because that would mean she has an easy patrol?

^ v
TheBirthdayGnomette says:
(Tue Dec 11 13:21:28 2018 [Edit/Delete]
Today Tuesday, December 11th 2018 C.E.

We have TWO (2) Birthdays!

Kestra Troi

Happy Birthday from the Bronze, to Kestra Troi, Sachiel!

Buffy: Synchronized slaying. Faith: New Olympic category? 'Revelations''

to be added to the birthday list, please email

^ v
ChristopherMarlowe says:
(Tue Dec 11 13:10:11 2018 [Edit/Delete]
yay dianne!

deadguy qod

Deck the halls, because she's decked a few baddies!

Happy Non-Buffy Tuesday!

^ v
lostinamerica says:
(Tue Dec 11 12:21:42 2018 [Edit/Delete]
Yay! dianne!

^ v
YayOfTheDay says:
(Tue Dec 11 12:14:05 2018 [Edit/Delete]
let's hear a great big bronze cheer for dianne

yay dianne!

today's deadguy memorial buffy tuesday question is brought to you by:

sunnydale music - beyond the monster mash

what is buffy's favorite christmas carol?

Happy Non-Buffy Tuesday!

^ v
Comma says:
(Tue Dec 11 04:17:15 2018 [Edit/Delete]
Thanks to everyone for the thoughts and prayers. She is still holding on. She is a tough little thing.


^ v
TheBirthdayGnomette says:
(Tue Dec 11 03:28:01 2018 [Edit/Delete]
Sunnydale's Numerical Pursuits

Category: Numbers
Question: How many zeros are in a googol?
Answer: 100

Trivia Numero Uno: notsoShyGirl
Trivia Zeros: Agent Cooper and wolfguard!

^ v
white wings says:
(Tue Dec 11 02:46:52 2018 [Edit/Delete]
Yay Serina!

Happy Birthday sammie, surleigh, vetrena, and Vodka'n'Orange!

DaddyCatALSO - I can know that there was a long process to evolve the current New Testament, and I can accept that certain tenets may have been injected by essentially good men who were the products of their contemporary societies, and probably weren't even aware of adding anything that would ever be controversial. Indeed, as a woman who lived through things like "all females must wear skirts in public, even when going to school in winter and the snow is higher than her boots and the tops of the boots are wearing her legs raw, or when making 24 hour flights across the Pacific and she's only nine", I am particularly inclined to take a some things we are told came from the Bible with a grain of salt. *g* Nevertheless, it does not prevent me from being content with the end result.

At least up to the King James version. In my opinion, these modernized texts didn't add much understanding and they removed the beauty. *g*

But I'm a sad old-fashioned person who was conditioned to accept the male pronoun as possibly referring to persons of either sex in general contexts, and isn't troubled by it. ;-)

Comma - Thinking of you and your family. I hope the cold, which is just a cruel addition of fate, is improving.

^ v
wolfguard says:
(Tue Dec 11 00:36:40 2018 [Edit/Delete]
Agent Cooper,

You are, as always. most gracious. *g*


"Existing" is the key word. The churches have had two thousand years to smooth
out the differences. Now all they have to do is agree on their interpretations
of the same text.


^ v
DaddyCatALSO says:
(Mon Dec 10 21:13:14 2018 [Edit/Delete]
Comma Also praying.

wolfguard Maverick white wings Any differences in the NEw Testament books among the existing churches are trivial at best. The Armenian Apostolic Church used to accept "3rd Corinthians" but not anymore. The Coptic and Ethiopian Churches used to and might still regard some of the early documents: the pseudonymous "Epistle of Barnabas" and authenticated latters by Clement of Rome and Polycarp both first-generation converts who had met one of the Apostles,, a nd the "Shepherd," an allegory written by Hermas, as fully canonical. But otherwise any groups which actually *used* other books are long defunct ("defunket," as Val Bisgolio would say.) Another thing I plan to change if I ever find my magic lamp and wish us to e New Earth:-)!

^ v
Agent Cooper says:
(Mon Dec 10 21:12:06 2018 [Edit/Delete]
I will of course, give Wolfguard and Notsoshygirl a few points from my winnings, because I am a good sport and it's almost Christmas.

How about a googol each?

^ v
Agent Cooper says:
(Mon Dec 10 21:07:03 2018 [Edit/Delete]
The point is I've correctly guessed the secret trivia answer and should therefore be awarded at least 75 googols worth of Bronze Trivia Points.

^ v
wolfguard says:
(Mon Dec 10 19:47:36 2018 [Edit/Delete]
Edited: Mon Dec 10 20:09:16 2018
Trivia Girl,

You mean, "oh's", yes? As Agent Cooper noted there are three. *g*

ETA: Wait, you know those are "oh's" so this is a trick question and the real
answer is there are zero zero's in googol!


^ v
Agent Cooper says:
(Mon Dec 10 17:27:53 2018 [Edit/Delete]
Trivia Girl: Well, three obviously!


These trick questions never work with me!

^ v
notsoShyGirl says:
(Mon Dec 10 15:55:49 2018 [Edit/Delete]
Trivia Girl
One hundred

^ v
Trivia Girl says:
(Mon Dec 10 15:26:32 2018 [Edit/Delete]
Sunnydale's Numerical Pursuits

Category: Numbers
Question: How many zeros are in a googol?

^ v
TheBirthdayGnomette says:
(Mon Dec 10 14:57:16 2018 [Edit/Delete]
Today Monday, December 10th 2018 C.E.

We have FOUR (4) Birthdays!


Happy Birthday from the Bronze, to sammie, surleigh, vetrena, Vodka'n'Orange

None of it means a damn thing. Mal, 'Objects In Space''

to be added to the birthday list, please email

^ v
ChristopherMarlowe says:
(Mon Dec 10 14:49:05 2018 [Edit/Delete]
Comma That is so horrible! My thoughts are with you and your family.

^ v
lostinamerica says:
(Mon Dec 10 13:27:14 2018 [Edit/Delete]
Comma--I'm praying for a
miracle for your daughter-in-law, so
sorry :(

^ v
YayOfTheDay says:
(Mon Dec 10 12:30:08 2018 [Edit/Delete]
let's hear a great big bronze cheer for serina!

yay serina!

Goodbye Blue Monday!

^ v
white wings says:
(Mon Dec 10 06:23:21 2018 [Edit/Delete]
Edited: Tue Dec 11 02:27:28 2018
Comma - I'm so sorry. There are no words.

^ v
Comma says:
(Mon Dec 10 06:00:14 2018 [Edit/Delete]
I was going to stay in DC until the 20th. Plans have changed. My only daughter-in-law is in hospice and is not expected to make it another 24 hours. Her liver has completely shut down and she would die from any attempt to transplant one. I flew in Friday night. I am trying to stay away from everyone because I have a nasty head cold. My son, and their four dogs, will have to go on alone.


^ v
wolfguard says:
(Mon Dec 10 05:58:33 2018 [Edit/Delete]

The first Roman emperor came to power around a generation before Jesus was
born. The last Roman emperor, in the west, was Romlulus Agustulus, in the
late 5th century. I think he ruled less than a year. Rome in the East, i.e.
Constantinople, continued for another 1,000 years. We know it as the
Byzantine Empire.

White Wings,

I believe the lion's share of scholars of religion, classics, and ancient
history believe Jesus was a historical figure.1 Who they believe
he was and who they believe he thinks he was varies. Some of these scholars
are Christians and some not.

If I remember correctly, there are around 5,000 existing New Testaments from
medieval times and none of them are said to be exactly alike. Most of the
differences are in spelling, though there are instances of words, sentences,
and even pages being dropped out. Mistakes happen, especially when copies
had to be done by hand. There are examples of scribes 'correcting' other
scribes' works. The printing press lessen such mistakes, but when a mistake
was made it went out in multiple copies. For instance, there's the "Wicked
Bible" printed in the early 1600's. One of the printers accidentally or
deliberately dropped "not" out of the 7th commandment rendering it, "Thou
shall commit adultery". This was caught relatively quickly and the offending
copies were confiscated and burnt.

Until around the 4th century, there was no "New Testament". Even after
Christians began writing down the stories and letters, different churches
and groups were using different collections. The Marionite Church believed
the only true word of Christ came from the Gospel of Luke and Paul's
letters. Christians argued over which gospels and letters were the proper
ones to use. And there were more than four gospels - a couple dozen or so.
After the Roman Empire embraced Christianity they needed an authoritative
set of writings. Church leaders discussed, debated, and decided on the 27
'books' that would be accepted as canonical.2 There were some
four criteria used in judging the candidates, but I only remember three of
them: (1) the older the book, the better, (2) the more widely used over
geographical space, the better, (3) the book could not contain material that
was at odds with what the church leaders believed were the true teachings,
i.e they had to be orthodox.

For example, one of the gospels being used by one of more of the churches
was not acceptable, because a line or two could be interpreted as implying
Jesus was not of flesh and blood, that is he was not human. I believe the
line went ~~ As Jesus hung from the cross he expressed no sign of pain.~~
There were some Christians who believed Jesus was not a man, but a divine
being, but this belief was not in keeping with the what the Church leaders
believed. Consequently, this gospel did not make the cut (I think it was the
"Gospel of Peter").

What's significant about this criteria is Christian leaders were choosing
which gospels and letters to accept based in part on what they believed. If
a candidate book did not agree with their belief, then it didn't make it
into the canon. So where did they get their beliefs? At least in part from
whatever gospels and letters they had been exposed to in their lives.

So were Christians choosing the gospels and letters they liked or the ones
they had lived with? Perhaps the choices reflected the correlation of
political forces with those church leaders? OTOH, maybe God guided the
choices? Of the latter, why wait so long? Then again, what's a few centuries
to God?3

1 There are a few who believe there was no historical Jesus.

2 Each of the separate writings are called books. Since I don't
think of letters as books, I used quotation marks. I'm being petty. *g*
Also, I believe the Catholic Bible includes books not included in some or
all Protestant Bibles, but I could be wrong - it's been awhile.

3 There's a science fiction story from some thirty years ago
where the protagonist is a priest who's sent to another planet to run-down
who is behind a new Christian church with its own new gospel. All I remember
of the story was that the founder of the new church himself wrote the gospel
and did so because he believed the people needed new stuff. His new gospel
included a dragon or two. ~People like dragons~ he told the priest. *g*


^ v
white wings says:
(Mon Dec 10 04:38:26 2018 [Edit/Delete]
Current and Belated Happy Birthday to Candy Kane, Jonathon_H, newtlet, Spikmeister, slyr314, Kenya, liz, and Mayday!

Christopher Marlowe - Here and there, but mostly there, I'm afraid. How's your weather? From here it looks like you are very cold and dry. Are you staying indoors like a sensible person? ;-)

wolfguard - Jesus was fast enough to avoid a lethal trick question, but the man (or the myth if you prefer) seemed to be genuinely uninterested in taking on the Romans. He was more interested in individual responsibility for individual behavior.

I did not realize that the writing we now have was that distant a derivation (having avoided listening to my brother, though I remember his saying that the original writings were in Greek). I'll go with faith, but I also remember that oral tradition in ancient cultures that had no other easy way of passing things down might have been more disciplined than say, a modern game of telephone.

Maverick - As wolfguard said, Christianity is a religion of faith. That doesn't mean that it's fiction. I don't feel a need to believe that every single word of the product of many translations came from the finger of God, but the end product is something that I can accept.

^ v
ChristopherMarlowe says:
(Mon Dec 10 00:22:10 2018 [Edit/Delete]
anyone hereabouts?

^ v
TheBirthdayGnomette says:
(Sun Dec 9 23:24:56 2018 [Edit/Delete]
Saturday and Sunday, December 8th and 9th 2018 C.E.

We have EIGHT (8) Birthdays!

Candy Kane

Happy Birthday from the Bronze, to Candy Kane, Jonathon_H, newtlet, Spikmeister, slyr314, Kenya, liz, Mayday

Simon: I'm trying to put this as delicately as I can... How do I know you won't kill me in my sleep? Mal: You don't know me, son. So let me explain this to you once: If I ever kill you, you'll be awake, you'll be facing me, and you'll be armed. 'Serenity']/i]

to be added to the birthday list, please email

^ v
Maverick says:
(Sun Dec 9 20:20:17 2018 [Edit/Delete]
Wolfguard, white wings: The Bible has lots of things in it that were unrecorded by the world at large. IT is considered by many as a HIStory book. As to the Christ story, I believe what is written in the Bible by Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John is Inspired and I'm glad we have it rather than it NOT be recorded at all. It certainly helps me make sense of the world. Another thing which has always convinced me (although even if it were not known, it wouldn't matter to me, personally) were the deaths of Peter, Paul, and one of the Jameses (I mix them up) as martyrs (which WAS recorded) and the oral traditions of the martyred deaths of most of the other Apostles (except John, who lived to write Revelations.) If someone wanted to die proclaiming the truth of Global Warming, I might give it a second thought. Paul was beheaded and Peter crucified upside down (ouch!) I wonder if this was in "The Rise and Fall of the Roman Empire" or whether they were just part of the general carnage.


Last Christmas

^ v
ChristopherMarlowe says:
(Sun Dec 9 14:00:47 2018 [Edit/Delete]
Good morning beta! Double birthdays at some point today!

^ v
wolfguard says:
(Sun Dec 9 08:43:24 2018 [Edit/Delete]
White Wings,

Dead Man's Party, of course! *g*


I did not mean to imply Jesus was afraid of the Romans, rather he wasn't
going to play into the hands of an adversary by a direct answer to a trick

Christianity's origin is Jesus' words, actions, and death - and for those
who believe, his resurrection. How do we know of these? We've read about
them or someone who has read about them has told us.1 So what did
we read? The New Testament. As you noted there are many translations. The
original canonical Gospels, Acts, and Paul's epistles were written in Greek
(ancient).2 Paul's letters are the oldest writings of the New
Testament and Paul never knew Jesus during Jesus' lifetime.3 The
canonical Gospels were written years after Jesus' death, so are based on
memories and/or oral traditions.4

To follow The New Testament back through time is to follow copies of
copies of copies ... to several centuries of debates over which copies of
the individual 'books' were authoritative ... to a period of time when what
was known about Jesus was what was remembered by people who had been told of
Jesus by people who had been told of Jesus ... to two people who by
tradition were disciples, one person who had been an interpreter for a
person who was a disciple, and one person who knew Paul (who never met
Jesus). Histories of people and events of two thousand years ago sometimes
rest on such small primary sources, but the subjects of interest do not make
the extraordinary claims that the followers of Jesus make in his name. And
as Carl Sagan said, ~ extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence.

In the end, Christianity is a religion of faith and faith does need to meet
the standards of historical or scientific proof.

1 There's also archaeological findings which may bolster or
weaken written sources.

2 Jesus spoke Aramaic.

3 Any personal experience Paul claims for interacting with Jesus
are outside the reach of historical methodologies. This is true for all
claims anyone makes of a subjective experience. For instance, "I prayed and
God told me not to take passage on the Titanic."

4 I know many believe they were written by the disciples.
However, as I recall "Mark" was an interpreter for Peter and "Luke" was a
companion of Paul's. No eyewitnesses here.


^ v
white wings says:
(Sun Dec 9 06:06:13 2018 [Edit/Delete]
Happy Birthday Spikmeister!

wolfguard - Dead Man's Party "Isn't it pretty? It raises the dead." Or words to that effect. *g* I guess it wasn't all that early, but it's what I think of as Early Buffy.

I am not shocked that there are stories about the construction of the early New Testament. My brother (the dedicated churchgoer) has been interested in those studies. I, the CEO (Christmas, Easter, and one other occasion) Christian, am the one mentally covering her ears and screeching "LALALALALA". It's like being told that Santa, the Easter Bunny, and the tooth fairy don't exist.

You have stories by people who knew Jesus and stories by people who knew people who knew Jesus (whether or not they were touched by the Holy Spirit). They were translated into other languages, and then re-translated into semi-modern English, and then modernized with occasional substitutions of words that reduced the beauty of the language and possibly changed the meaning in the same way that the earlier translations had. Add to that various official gatherings of people who decided what to include and what to banish to outer darkness, and the supposition that the narrative might have strayed from the Truth does sort of present itself.

And yet scholars often don't believe a lot of things in ancient stories or oral traditions because they are too arrogant or too busy rationalizing what they think they know, when they are just lacking evidence that they believe. Sometimes they run across things, like maybe the ruins of Troy.

*shrug* Excuse me while I go put an angel on the top of my tree. *g*

Jesus would definitely not have lasted long if he had decided to fight the Romans. Yet he set his own expiration date by taking on the money changers, so it wasn't fear that caused him to steer clear of secular politics. There was a difference. The Romans mostly left the religion alone. They used it by getting religious leaders to keep the population quiet, but they didn't try to eradicate it. Jesus (according to the stories) was upset that spiritual matters were being invaded by the mundane, so there was consistency there. I don't know if he thought that the entire world would be ending soon or cared. He knew that it would end for every person when they died. He also seemed to believe that it would be a better place while it existed if people would be kinder and gentler in their dealings. There were a lot of rules for decent behavior in daily living already. You know, the ten commandments, the rules for the care of animals and slaves, leaving some grains for widows to winnow, and probably a lot more things which I don't have in mind or know about. He seemed to want to smooth off some rough edges that developed when people got too dogmatic about Rules.

I think I've hit the edges of my theology. I've got decorations to deal with. *g*

^ v
wolfguard says:
(Sun Dec 9 05:27:40 2018 [Edit/Delete]
Christopher Marlowe,

The Picture of Dorian Gray


^ v
ChristopherMarlowe says:
(Sun Dec 9 03:31:47 2018 [Edit/Delete]
wolfguard We did have Joyce's art gallery thingy, but haunted pictures!

^ v
ChristopherMarlowe says:
(Sat Dec 8 19:05:18 2018 [Edit/Delete]
happy noontime beta!

^ v
wolfguard says:
(Sat Dec 8 07:18:55 2018 [Edit/Delete]
White Wings,

Which episode?

For the past few days, I've been listening to lectures on the history of the
New Testament. It's historical and not theological, so it has much content
that would annoy or anger some Christians. C'est la vie. *g* For instance,
if we approach the understanding of Jesus as we would most historical
figures, what can we say he did or do and with what degree of certainty?

That said, my quick take on what Jesus said about Caesar. *g*

As I recall, Jesus had been asked a question about paying taxes by people
who were trying to entrap him into the common people or exposing himself to
charges of sedition. If Jesus had said, "People should pay their taxes to
Rome", then he would have been seen as siding with Rome the occupier. OTOH,
if he had replied, "Do not pay taxes to Rome", then he would have been seen
as a rebel. Jesus turned the question back on those who asked and those who
listened. ~ Give Caesar what is Caesar's and the Lord's what is the Lord's".

Many New Testament scholars think Jesus believed God's time was at hand and
preparing for it was the most important single thing a person could do.
Don't get ensnared with politics and rebellion - it's penny ante stuff.
Focus on God. God's coming. He's knocking on the door. Pay attention. Are
you listening?



^ v
white wings says:
(Sat Dec 8 04:54:50 2018 [Edit/Delete]
Yay Monique!

Happy Birthday Ana, Angelique's Faith, Erika Amato, KANE, moppety, Witchy Woman, and Xander 13!

wolfguard - Triggers are funny. With you it's a specific memory, with me an event in a specific kind of location. Although I'm not entirely sure that I should be singing Rock of Ages, which I was doing when things went emotionally pear-shaped. But I don't know, and I'm not planning to find out.

I was right and wrong in what I said last night. Jesus didn't try to take on Caesar, and didn't (so far as we know) encourage others to do so. He was, however, pretty interested in taking on the moneylenders in the Temple, and that was part of the power structure of the times. I forgot about them. Perhaps it was a Freudian slip, as it was not helpful to my train of thought. *g* But I promise that I actually wasn't thinking about that.

I still think that Francis has fallen prey to forces that ultimately would use him and destroy his church. He's not the only one that I think has done so. It's a belief and I'm sticking to it.

wolfguard, Agent Cooper - There's a lot of history behind the papacy. I haven't studied the specifics, as it wasn't a great interest of mine. There were times, long, long ago, but not so very far away, when the popes had armies and used them. They were real political powers. Vatican City has its own police and embassies and ambassadors. I don't know how practically autonomous it is, but it certainly preserves the trappings. And as for celibacy, well, there's a reason why Italy has lines of Papal princes. I used to know one. Charming gentleman.

Agent Cooper - Do you think that if priests went around saying that people MUST vote Democrat that their tax exempt status would be revoked. Just a thought. *g*

wolfguard, Christopher Marlowe - *tsk* You are forgetting that African tribal art featured prominently on an early Buffy episode. ;-)

^ v
wolfguard says:
(Sat Dec 8 04:07:03 2018 [Edit/Delete]
Christopher Marlowe,

Not visual art. How'd the writers miss it?!


^ v
ChristopherMarlowe says:
(Fri Dec 7 23:46:41 2018 [Edit/Delete]
wolfguard Art!!!! Did we ever have a Buffy ep that featured art in some way?

^ v
wolfguard says:
(Fri Dec 7 19:52:19 2018 [Edit/Delete]
Edited: Fri Dec 7 19:59:42 2018
Agent Cooper,

John John Paul the II didn't involve himself in politics?! *g*

I suspect some people decide what sort of issues are appropriate or
inappropriate based on whether or not the Church sides with them or not on the
issue. TPTB embraces the Church when it supports the status quo and not when
the Church questions the status quo. People of the faith ask what does Jesus
want of me? How do I know? Through the Church? If what the Church says seems
wrong to me, is that my failing or the Church's failing? The Church may have
been created by God and sometimes instilled with God, but it's run by humans
and humans can be tempted. It's an epistemological nightmare. *g*


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TheBirthdayGnomette says:
(Fri Dec 7 17:12:28 2018 [Edit/Delete]
Today Friday, December 7th 2018 C.E.

We have SEVEN (7) Birthdays!

Angelique's Faith
Erika Amato
Witchy Woman
Xander 13

Happy Birthday from the Bronze, to Ana, Angelique's Faith, Erika Amato, KANE, moppety, Witchy Woman, Xander 13

We have to see the chimp playing hockey! That's hilarious! The ice is so slippery, and, and monkeys are all irrational. We have to see this! Anya, 'Into the Woods'

to be added to the birthday list, please email

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ChristopherMarlowe says:
(Fri Dec 7 15:34:03 2018 [Edit/Delete]
good morning beta!

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Agent Cooper says:
(Fri Dec 7 15:15:38 2018 [Edit/Delete]
Daddycatalso: I still think you should go with my Winds of War Plus Vampires thing. It's a sure winner, I'm tellin ya!

You could make it a Young Adult book series. Scholastic would gobble it up.

We'll split the royalties, 50/50!

I can almost hear Hollywood begging for the film rights now..

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Agent Cooper says:
(Fri Dec 7 15:10:21 2018 [Edit/Delete]
Wolfguard: Yes, I probably worded my earlier rant poorly. The church has always been marred by internal politics. And external politics. But there has historically always been a bit of distance kept between the church and the dodgy hot button political issues of the day.

In modern times The pope would rarely directly involve himself in such things, or try to influence things on that scale. If he did, he would do so very subtly. Never in a direct, confrontational way. As it should be.

In other words, the church rarely officially picks a side, except on matters directly within the scope of the faith.

For instance you would never hear a Pope say "All Catholics in the US MUST vote democrat this year!"

This pope hasn't gone quite that far, but he's definitely dancing on a line.

CC White Wings

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DaddyCatALSO says:
(Fri Dec 7 15:08:10 2018 [Edit/Delete]
Maverick I'm not sure what you mean but I've kicked any number of novel & short story ideas around for most of my life

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YayOfTheDay says:
(Fri Dec 7 11:44:11 2018 [Edit/Delete]
let's hear a great big bronze cheer for monique!

yay monique!

Happy Thank Joss It's Friday!

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wolfguard says:
(Fri Dec 7 08:05:25 2018 [Edit/Delete]
Edited: Fri Dec 7 08:07:03 2018
White Wings,

Thinking about my father doesn't bring tears, it was so long ago. However,
thinking about that specific incident did - I imagine the emotions are tied
to that memory just as a scent might draw in memories of a specific place
and time. For instance, during the preparation for my father's funeral one
of my brothers told me it would be at Methodist church. Well, Dad was an
agnostic, if not an atheist. I reminded my brother of this and he replied,
"This week he's a Methodist." I laughed then, and smile now. *g*

Agent Cooper, DaddyCatALSO, and Maverick -

I was going to stay out of this conversation, but since White Wings
has stepped forward, I will follow. *g* The Catholic Church has always been
involved in politics. It cannot avoid not doing so. Years and years ago I
read some paperback history of the Catholic Church. All I remember is the
first chapter which told how the Church became part of the Empire. The
writer began with what happened to males sent to work as slaves in the Roman
mines. They were first flogged to filter out the weak. Next they were
castrated followed by having their Achille's tendons cut to hamper any
thoughts of escape. Finally they had their hands and feet chained and the
chains had no lock, because they would never be unchained again while alive
(I imagine after a slave died they chains were cut off to be reused).

The author suggested this was how many Church leaders ended their lives. And
then came Constantine's 'conversion' to Christianity. The emperor had his
soldiers bring the then Church leader to him. I do not know what the 'pope'
was feeling as he entered the presence of Constantine, but he probably
wasn't surprised with what was offered him - power. Earthly power was not
something this pope sought, but his right-hand man persuaded him what great
things could be done for the Lord if the Church and the Empire joined hands.

And so the Church broke bread with Caesar and that right-hand man went on to
become a pope and when he died, he died surround by power and wealth.


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white wings says:
(Fri Dec 7 07:17:24 2018 [Edit/Delete]
Yay AndeeH!

Happy Birthday Angelphyre, Batra, Kansas, School Girl, and Zinderella!

wolfguard - I'm sorry.

Ten years ago I would have said that I was fairly unemotional about funerals. I'd never shed a tear at one. But then my father died. He told me many times over the years that he didn't want a funeral, and I promised. I kept that promise, but he never said anything about memorials, and I carefully didn't ask. I knew my brother would want one, and looking back, I'm sure we both needed it. So it was cremation and a later memorial. I was numb until partway through, after which I was kind of a wreck. Dealing with my mother's passing two months later did not help. Now I can't attend a funeral in a church without weeping. It doesn't matter who it is, or what the church is. Yes, there were some tears over watching the Bush funeral, but I was in private, unlike the unfortunate participants. I had the impression that a lot of the military rituals and measured beats gave some space to people to compose themselves.

I always figured that eventually the effect would wear off. Twenty years, you say? That's you, and I'm me, but it means that there is no guarantee.

Weddings are your problem. I leave you in the hands of your goddaughters. *g*

Maverick - I couldn't make it all the way through the article on liberation theology. It wasn't pleasing. I can see why it would appeal to the downtrodden in Latin America, all right. They don't have experience of anything else. Take everything from everyone who isn't you in the name of a higher being or ideology, save some for bread and circuses, and keep the rest for yourself and favored buddies, like contracts for non-shovel ready jobs to campaign contributors. The people who have lost everything will support you for fear that you'll take away the bread and circuses. But eventually there won't be enough bread because you've regulated the bakers out of business.

The interesting thing is that people keep wanting to come to this country to be capitalists.

Traditionally capitalism has needed some kind of a check, whether it's religious philosophies or some degree of regulation. People just go overboard without an external encouragement to moderation. Pope Francis has fallen into the trap of thinking that since Jesus supported the poor and encouraged the rich to give away all their worldly goods (voluntarily and individually), that he should push a political agenda that would force the same. Force and regulations won't purify any souls, and the people whose theories he's buying would like to destroy his church. But he can't see that. He might, however, consider that Jesus differentiated between Caesar and God, and he was leaving Caesar alone. He wanted the individuals, not the governments.

Agent Cooper - It's a mistake to think that church organizations any church are not highly political. They are groups of people, and groups of people will vie for position and power. It just happens.

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ChristopherMarlowe says:
(Fri Dec 7 03:57:34 2018 [Edit/Delete]
I am back home!

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Maverick says:
(Fri Dec 7 02:55:05 2018 [Edit/Delete]

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Maverick says:
(Fri Dec 7 02:46:17 2018 [Edit/Delete]
Christopher Marlowe: Saw your comment on cold and snow. You said, paraphrasing, it was not very cold BUT it was cold enough to snow. When I was a kid, the old timers used to always say, "It's too cold to snow." That used to have me scratching my head trying to figure out what in the heck they were saying. The point was, and it's along the lines of what Wolfguard and I have been talking about, that it matters if there is cloud cover or not, especially at night. Why? It's not going to snow without clouds AND without clouds it's usually much colder because the heat of the day escapes into the coldness of outer space. So, if it's especially cold, there probably are no clouds (holding in the heat) and consequently there will be no snow. Interesting how backwards that old expression was, though.


Trans-Siberian Orchestra's Christmas Canon

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Trivia Girl says:
(Thu Dec 6 23:35:31 2018 [Edit/Delete]
Sunnydale's Trivial Pursuit

Category: It's a secret!
Question: Where would you find the volcano Olympus Mons?

Answer: mars

Trivia Martians: notsoShyGirl
Trivia Earthers: Maverick

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Maverick says:
(Thu Dec 6 21:51:11 2018 [Edit/Delete]
Trivia Girl: I know but, being sworn to secrecy, I can't tell you.

DaddyCatALSO: Sorry, but if you can't edit your posts, I can't guess what you mean. I am glad, however, that you seem to be writing something that, finally, does not fall under Joss's copyright, and which you have a chance to get published under your own name. Stay with that idea.

Agent Cooper, white wings: Pope Francis is simple-minded and just regurgitates all the Lefty Lies. He has no sense of history or he would realize that Capitalism has raised many more people out of poverty than his utopian Socialist ideologies, especially since in their reality they usually end with dictatorial tyrants who perpetrate mass murders to keep power. Pope doesn't even see Venezuela (and Cuba) as exemplifying what he's advocating. And in the area of clergy sexual abuse, etc., they can't play footsie with it. They need to either allow heterosexual married priests or they need to subject unmarried priests to monthly polygraph testing based on actual physical acts (not necessarily transitory ideas, etc.) to weed out those who would physically molest parishioners. Two movies that I would recommend in this regards, the documentary "Deliver Us From Evil" where they horrifyingly present a glorified parish priest who has molested small children and actually believed he had a right to, and the movie "Doubt," with Meryl Streep and Philip Seymour Hoffman, which shows it may have been the Nuns who actually policed the molesting priests in the olden days but are mostly not there now to identify them.


Carol Of The Bells

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DaddyCatALSO says:
(Thu Dec 6 21:38:44 2018 [Edit/Delete]
If I had a mansion with lots of flagpoles outside, tomorrow on the lower tiers (the upper tier is for the permanent flags) I would be flying the US Army , Navy, and Marine Corps flags, the Hawaii and Arizona state flags, and the 48-star flag

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wolfguard says:
(Thu Dec 6 20:09:40 2018 [Edit/Delete]

Christopher Marlowe,

I saw two clips. One was part of Baker's words and the other from a singing
group Bush Elder had liked. The spokesman for the latter said, ~ He (Bush)
fancied himself a good bass singer (beat) He wasn't. CUT-TO Bush the Younger
laughing through his tears.

White Wings,

I could not long attend my father's wake. My brothers had to stand before
his coffin and receive people. I fell apart. I went to one their homes, make
a sandwich and watched an episode of Gilmore girls (that's one way
people deal with death, we grasp to normalcy). And when it was over I went
back to the funeral home - after everyone had left - and said good-bye
(tears now, almost 20 years later).

This past May I officiated at a wedding of one of my goddaughters. It was
outside in Alaska on a glacier. No problems. But at some point during the
reception I just started crying and left the building. Two of my
goddaughters saw and came running after. I'm just too sentimental. I can't
listen to "Sacrifice" (The Gift) without crying. *g*


Yours, "... I am interested in how much possible heat (energy) escapes
the greenhouse because there's no roof on OUR greenhouse...
" An actual
greenhouse - the structure? In the short-term, ventilation systems. In the
long term the energy would either escape or coming into balance with the
external environment.1

The Earth experiences a thermal balance between the energy received from the
Sun and the energy emitted from the Earth, but this balance doesn't happen
instantly. For example, fossil fuels. They represent sunlight stored first
in plants and then transformed into their current form over millions of
years and over the past few centuries released back into the atmosphere to
eventually radiate into space (one writer has referred to fossil fuels as
"ancient sunlight").

More later.

1 When people are talking about Global Warming, we're talking
about a global average temperature change that has global effects.

Day-Night, Tropic-Polar, Summer-Winter, Land-Ocean


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DaddyCatALSO says:
(Thu Dec 6 19:39:41 2018 [Edit/Delete]
Agent Cooper Maverick There have been any number of samll schisms, starting with the churches of the Utrecht Communion after Vatican I, along with smaller, mostly unrecognized bodies calling themselves thigns like American Cahtolic Churhc etc. And post Vatican II conservatives like the True Catholic Church, and others which are organize da s socieites rather than dneomiantions, who regard the Papacy as vacated by the theology of Vatican II. (One group is the Resetablsiehd Cahtolic Churhc, led bya French priest who claims he was caught into heaven and cosnecreated bishop by Peter, James,a nd JOhn.) And among the more liberals there are dissident groups which also haven't formed into any actual denominations, but gettogetehr and perform unauthorized services; people in s ame sex marriages, married men and women who claim ordinations etc

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notsoShyGirl says:
(Thu Dec 6 15:10:48 2018 [Edit/Delete]
Trivia Girl

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