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Trivia Girl says:
(Tue Sep 10 10:10:52 2019
Today Tuesday, September 10th 2019 C.E.

We have SIX (6) Birthdays!

Harry Groener as Mayor Richard Wilkins III
Ozlet #2

Happy Birthday from the Bronze, to Bronzon, David, Harry Groener, LavenderMagik, Ozlet #2, Rianes, Shaniah

You're like my fairy godmother, and Santa Claus, and Q all wrapped up into one! Q from Bond, not Star Trek. Buffy, 'Out of My Mind'

to be added to the birthday list, please email

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white wings says:
(Tue Sep 10 05:41:23 2019
wolfguard - It did, right down to the inaccuracy of a Hollywood relocation of the Mayans to Venezuela. *g* But I can't take it seriously, in part because I associate South America with the image of the Chaos Demon. All horns and slime, you know. ;-)

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wolfguard says:
(Tue Sep 10 05:34:19 2019
Edited: Tue Sep 10 05:35:19 2019
ETA Removed duplicate post.


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wolfguard says:
(Tue Sep 10 05:27:01 2019
White Wings,

Did it read true? *g*

Mayans believe(d) in souls, though I wouldn't be surprised if the two
concepts, Mayan soul and Christian soul, don't map exactly. To begin to
translate is to begin to lie.


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white wings says:
(Tue Sep 10 04:26:05 2019
Happy Birthday ACBuffyFan, bohemiangel, brb14, CarpeDi, Occido, and Trinity!

Trivia Girl - Not the Internet! Of all the utilities to lose! I hope you are back.

Agent Cooper, wolfguard, Christopher Marlowe - If Agent Cooper was working in a gas station a hundred years ago, I think we need to see if he has any altars hidden in closets, and think about getting a bigger board.
-OB Buffy

Aside from that, isn't it amazing how ingenious folks could be in olden days? Imagine coming up with the idea of a drop safe back in that evolutionary stage. *g* I don't think I'll be taking up a second job as a robber. There's clearly too much precision planning and moving around involved.

wolfguard - LOL! re: Angel Falls. Didn't Dru meet her chaos demon in South America? *g* I'm afraid the concept doesn't work as well without the Christian concept of souls. ;-)

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Comma says:
(Tue Sep 10 02:54:17 2019
Edited: Tue Sep 10 02:57:36 2019
lostinamerica: There is serious talk, spearheaded by sportswriters in Knoxville, that Fulmer will fire Pruitt, when UT starts 1-6, and Fulmer will put himself back in the head coach's job. Paul Finebaum is taking that idea pretty serious. After all, where do you get a great head coach in early November? Will Fulmer, if he takes over this year, be the head coach next year?


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lostinamerica says:
(Tue Sep 10 01:03:49 2019
Trivia Girl--Sorry to hear that :( Though that means I have time to give
you the correct answer--it is named after the title character of an American TV

Isn't it obvious? This IS the Bronze Beta, isn't it?

Happy Birthday CarpeDi and Trinity!

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Trivia Girl says:
(Tue Sep 10 01:00:34 2019
Sunnydale's Geographical Pursuits

Category: Geography
Question: What is notable about Angel Falls in Venezuela?
Answer: it's the highest waterfall

Trivia Master: notsoShyGirl!

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ChristopherMarlowe says:
(Mon Sep 9 23:56:46 2019
Trivia answer will be delayed..the
internet is down in my areA.

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wolfguard says:
(Mon Sep 9 21:50:29 2019
Christopher Marlowe,

Human sacrifices appear to have been common through Mexico, Central America,
and the Andean. Take a look ...

Agent Cooper,

The writer had one chapter on how to police-proof your kid's car. It
involved pouring bondo in every vacant space that could be used to hide
illegal substances.

Back in the 60's there was a book on smuggling titled, The Smugglers.
The author wrote on law enforcement officer he interviewed asked if he would
titled the book, "Profits for Sure". Besides the usual guns and drugs were
items that countries had made illegal to import so to protect infant
industries. As I remember, one such item was honey. Another more mundane way
of smuggling was lying on a shipping manifest to avoid later paying taxes.
For instance, a retailer or wholesaler might declare a imported shipment of
shoes as being 60.000 pairs when it was actually 75,000 pairs. The
additional 15,000 could be sold without paying taxes on the shoes. The
gamble was customs did not have the ability to count all the shoes. This was
back when containers had only been around for ten odd years.


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ChristopherMarlowe says:
(Mon Sep 9 20:17:26 2019
wolfguard I can see why they
might have gone with the Mayan, as
I thought blood sacrifices weren't

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Agent Cooper says:
(Mon Sep 9 20:03:26 2019
Wolfguard: I have to read that one. For purely academic purposes, of course. ;-)

Actually, I read a very good book about life in Leavenworth prison. The writer spent a year there, allowed to walk freely anywhere he wanted. He observed the prison and made acquaintances of the prisoners and got to know the real skinny about what was going on.

Anyhow, one of the characters he met was one of the most successful bank robbers in the country's history. They guy robbed banks for most his adult life. I can't remember his name. But he considered himself a professional criminal and he was very methodical and smart. He told the book's author a few of his tricks.

For instance, he knew to rob the bank on Friday morning. Because they had more money on hand at that time in preparation to cash paychecks on Friday afternoon.

He'd case the bank for day and get to know who was there and when, how many tellers and guards worked at what hours, when the case was delivered and picked up, how often a police cruiser came by etc. He'd plan his escape route in detail, memorize several routes in case one was blocked.

And this is what he did when it was time to "work." First he'd steal a car. His favorite tactic was case a school or a bowling alley or a bar. Part of his prep was to pick the right car, IE one that was going to be parked for a few hours. IE, if he knew the owner went into his job at 9am and left his car parked until 1pm every day, he'd steal that car and park it a few blocks from the bank. Then he'd steal a random car close to the bank, get into his mask and rob the bank. He made sure he was out in 2 minutes. (His advice- don't be greedy. Alot of bank robbers get greedy and wait too long for more money and get caught.) He'd take the cash and drive away in the stolen car. Then park that car and take the first stolen car (the one that probably wasn't going to be reported stolen for a few hours) and drive away in that.

He never spent large sums of money afterwards, He actually buried the lion's share of the money in mason jars in his yard, taking out a hundred or so once in a while.

The guy was pretty smart.

This was in the 70s and early 80s of course, before security and law enforcement became more sophisticated, and before round the clock video survaillance became so ubiquitous as it is now.

IIRC I think he finally got caught because of one of those exploding dye packs. They were a relatively new thing and he was caught by surprise. Long story short it stained his hands and that's part of why he got IDed and caught.

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wolfguard says:
(Mon Sep 9 17:36:32 2019
Agent Cooper,

When I was working in convenient stores - not 100 years ago, but awhile ago
*g*, money was dropped in a metal safe. One problem was getting clerks to do
it promptly. If there was a large volume of customers some clerks would
either not take the time or worry about having adequate change quickly. You
know the customers that want to buy a pack of gum with a $50 bill. OTOH, if
the store was full of customers, then they'd be less likely to be robbed ...

But, 'amateurs' don't always do risk/reward calculations. They may wait till
the store is quiet to rob and during these times they may not much in the
till - but there's something and it's more than they have and perhaps they
can add some beer and cigarettes to the mix.

There was a defense attorney (ex-FBI, ex-cop) who wrote a book on how not to
get arrested. Great read, fun and educational. He noted most 'career'
criminals are late for court for the same reason they are late for most
everything - they are on a different clock. Time for them is NOW. What do I
need or want to do NOW? He would give clients watches (back before cell
phones) and teach them how to use it and why they had to use it, because the
courts will give you time if you only live in the NOW.

Living in the NOW is living by impulse. To quote Faith, "Want-Take-Have".

That was obligatory Buffy *g*


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Agent Cooper says:
(Mon Sep 9 16:45:59 2019
I worked in a small gas station about a hundred years ago when I was young, up in Plattsburgh. It was a full serve place, so I had to man the counter and pump all the gas. Everything back then was in cash, and I had to do it all in my head. Added fun bonus was having rude canadians from Montreal come down to shop at the mall nearby stop in for gas and pay in those board game canadian dollars. I had to figure out the whatever the current exchange rate was on the fly. I didn't speak a word of French so if they thought I was wrong it got...interesting.

Anyway, we had a drop safe. All those little gas station stick up marts do. If you don't know what that is - it's a big steel safe built into the concrete of the floor under the counter with a small slot in the top, like a big piggy bank. There's only a set amount of cash in the register, just enough to make change. Any extra is dropped in the safe and only the owner has the key or combo. Nobody else can open it, sometimes not even the manager. The kid at the counter can't even get into it if he wanted to.

Robbing convenience stores and such is a very high risk/low reward enterprise for a criminal. They are brightly lit, have cameras all over and lots of traffic unless it's night time. And with only that small change fund in the register, it's totally amateurs who rob them. And that was even back then when people used cash. I bet nowadays there's even less hard cash at all in those tills.

The thing now is the oxycontin. Now that's where the professionals go. Pharmacies are getting hit for that all the time now. My eye doctor of all places got hit last year. This guy came in and beat up the doctor pretty bad and robbed the place. I remember asking my wife "Who the heck robs an eye doctor's office?" She reminded me - they were looking for drugs, specically oxycontin.

Still, an eye doctor ssems a stretch for that. Like they have it on hand or something. But I guess small time crooks and junkies are not the smartest folks in the first place.

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wolfguard says:
(Mon Sep 9 15:03:04 2019
Edited: Tue Sep 10 05:21:52 2019
Trivia Girl,

In a flashback scene in a working script for Innocence1
there's scene of Angelus, Spike, and Dru in Venezuela (Think of the
storyline where Butch, Sundance, and Etta go to Bolivia). Instead of Angelus
killing a Gypsy Girl and being cursed, he killed a Mayan girl and got
cursed.2 Joss scotched the idea, because the story seemed more
thematically logical if Angelus' story stayed in Europe. Also, joss believed
more viewers would associate Gypsies with magic than Mayans with magic. Why
write against odds?

(ETA It's true!)

1 The working title for Innocence was "Angel Falls"
(Becomes Angelus again, "falls" in Buffy's eyes, Buffy "falls" from
innocence. You can see where the change in title came there).

2 Yes, the Mayans reside in Central America and what's now
Mexico, but these are Hollywood writers. Hollywood writers. Emotional truth
comes before facts. And we wanted to go to Venezuela. It's "V" one of the
last countries on our bucket list. And it's V. Seriously.


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DaddyCatALSO says:
(Mon Sep 9 14:06:38 2019
white wings Agent Cooper I'm going g mainly by Jonathan's "He doesn't *eat*."

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notsoShyGirl says:
(Mon Sep 9 14:05:13 2019
Trivia Girl
It's the world's highest uninterrupted waterfall, dropping 3,212 feet.

The waterfall has been known as the Angel Falls since the mid-20th century; they are named after Jimmie Angel, a US aviator, who was the first person to fly over the falls.

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Trivia Girl says:
(Mon Sep 9 13:48:59 2019
Sunnydale's Geographical Pursuits

Category: Geography
Question: What is notable about Angel Falls in Venezuela?

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TheBirthdayGnomette says:
(Mon Sep 9 13:28:38 2019
Today Monday, September 9th 2019 C.E.

We have SIX (6) Birthdays!


Happy Birthday from the Bronze, to ACaBuffyFan, bohemiangel, brb14, CarpeDi
Occido, Trinity

I-I'm just taking things without paying for th... In what twisted dictionary is that stealing? Willow, 'Triangle'

to be added to the birthday list, please email

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lostinamerica says:
(Mon Sep 9 11:36:41 2019
ChristopherMarlowe, white wings, Comma--Some people are already
wondering if Pruitt will last until the end of October--after 1-1/2 seasons!
Apparently they've already forgotten the debacle that was the last coaching
search :( Didn't they see that not everyone views their beloved team as they

And Comma, the problem isn't not hiring Schiano, it's the fact that
since firing Fulmer they've had 5 coaches, FIVE, in 10 years! I blame Kiffin,
the first hire after Fulmer--he was doing OK his first season and then jumped
ship (during recruiting season no less) to go to his dream job at USC, and it's
been all downhill from there. Kiffin did get fired from USC after touching down
at the airport following a disappointing loss, because, as well all know, karma
is a b*tch :)

Then you have to look at the athletic directors who made those five hires.
It's kind of like someone who's been married five times--at some point you've
got to look at your ability to pick the right woman/coach.

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white wings says:
(Mon Sep 9 02:02:16 2019
Happy Birthday Aeryn, Lilana, Niall, The Wonder Dog, and Ty King!

Christopher Marlowe - Football.

lostinamerica - A long season.

Comma - You have your UT. I have mine. Texas, that is. They are definitely on an upswing, but they weren't ready for LSU. They did try. It almost worked. *sigh* And as is the way with college teams, if they do wind up polished and brilliant and winning, they'll graduate.

I think I might require some more ice cream now that I'm remembering last night.

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Comma says:
(Mon Sep 9 00:03:29 2019
lostinamerica: When UT signed a letter of understanding with Greg Schiano, then reneged on it, over unfounded and unproven allegations, I felt that was the end of UT football for a while. Coach Schiano had a history as a winner and a great defensive coach. Players, from around the nation, would have come to UT to play for him. Pruitt does not have that type of following. Maybe, if he can somehow turn it around, he may develop that following.

I picked the University of Tennessee, at the start of the season, to win five games. Two of those games are already losses. I think that they will beat Chattanooga and UAB. Them and Vanderbilt are now a toss up. I must wonder hw long Pruitt will last? That is, 'If he does not turn this around!'.

At least the Titans looked good!


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ChristopherMarlowe says:
(Sun Sep 8 23:33:00 2019
lostinamerica Football woes?

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lostinamerica says:
(Sun Sep 8 12:24:16 2019
Another loss--boy, this is gonna be
a LONG season :(

Happy Birthday Menomegirl!

Belated Happy Birthday NuPhalanx!

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TheBirthdayGnomette says:
(Sun Sep 8 10:22:33 2019
Happy Birthday from the Bronze to bronzers born September 7th or September 8th! Demonette(Katie), Menomegirl, Aeryn, Lilana, Niall, The Wonder Dog, Ty King[/center]

Jayne, you'll scare the women. Zoe, 'Bushwhacked'

to be added to the birthday list, please email

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white wings says:
(Sun Sep 8 04:33:14 2019
College football. :( Last week was all fireworks and sparklers. Tonight is slumped in recliner huddled over ice cream. On the bright side, we didn't get to see both teams hauled off with heat exhaustion, which wasn't totally impossible given that the temperature was around 90 on the field. So both sides will have players for another game.

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white wings says:
(Sun Sep 8 00:17:30 2019
Christopher Marlowe - The margins on those small stores are very thin. Even unauthorized "perks" by staff quickly become critical. That's why the owner is behind the counter as often as possible, to avoid paying staff. So long hours and few staff are a necessity.

What wolfguard said as far as deterrents goes. One hopes that the fees for financial transactions are offset by not having cash stolen. Other things that I can think of all have disadvantages that are functionally impossible, or involve more staff. Unless you have a lot of staff, all that does is increase the number of targets/hostages/human shields for use by robbers (and reduces the profit margins further).

I'm reminded of a team exercise years ago where the challenge was to prevent flag men in Houston from being mowed down. The folks in the group from Houston were all highly interested in items such as explosive traffic cones. I sensed hostility, but solutions that involved more prevention than revenge didn't seem easy to find. Flag men in Houston are still being mowed down.

I think that trying to reduce cash transactions is probably the key.

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wolfguard says:
(Sat Sep 7 23:57:34 2019
Edited: Sat Sep 7 23:58:40 2019
Christopher Marlowe & White Wings,

Walmarts usually have so many people on site that they are too risky for
the average stick-up artist (though perhaps not for robbing someone going to
their car, especially if the car is parked on the fringes).

There's usually not much distance between the front door of a convenient
store and the register. Parking is easy. Usually getting off property quick
is easy.

Some of the standard ways of deterring people from robbing a convenient
store ...

1) NOTICES that little money is kept in the registers.1

2) Big, uncluttered, glass windows so people can easily see in and out.

3) Visible cameras

4) Heavy customer flow

5) Free coffee and doughnuts for cops. A cruiser in the lot deters. Knowing
cops make frequent stops and pass-by's deters.

1 As more people use debit cards, credit cards, cell phone aps to
do financial transactions, the less need for cash. No cash and only
merchandise is left to be stolen and you can't carry a lot of merchandise in
one hand (other hand holding the gun).


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ChristopherMarlowe says:
(Sat Sep 7 22:28:04 2019
Edited: Sun Sep 8 02:01:04 2019
wolfguard, white wings Simply the fact that convenience stores have
such long hours, few staff and are around every corner that makes them such
easy targets. Would changing any one of those factors change anything? Some
stores like Wal-mart have long hours too, but they don't seem to be targets
for robberies.

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white wings says:
(Sat Sep 7 19:43:07 2019
Happy Birthday Demonette and Menomegirl!

Good afternoon Christopher Marlowe.

wolfguard - Angelus killed a lot of Romani before his soul was restored. Jenny's uncle was Romani, but his strength appeared to be in the memory of old traditions, not in magical practices. He was a trifle careless considering what he knew of Angelus and having warning that the curse might be slipping. The BBS knew a lot about magic, specifically Romani magic, and he must have known a lot about vampires, given that he was living and working in a vampire town.

wolfguard, Christopher Marlowe - I wouldn't be inclined to trust that expediting a robbery would ensure my safety. OTOH, I wouldn't be inclined to trust that fighting back would save me either. That's particularly true on a personal level, given my lack of talent in the fighting back line, but it seems iffy for anyone, given the unpredictability of events, and the difficulty of putting down someone on drugs. One has to decide on the odds in the situation.

I know, let's have background checks and key card entry for shopping in fast food stores.

And a supply of holy water in hotel rooms next to the Gideon bibles. Just in case. *g*

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Maverick says:
(Sat Sep 7 17:39:48 2019
What I saw at Ollie's:

I think we have 2 Ollie's Bargain Stores in the Detroit Area. In the one closest to me I saw, in the Comic Books Compendium area, copies of Buffy Omnibus Volume 4, Volume 5, and Volume 6, each for $3.99. The List Price is supposedly like $25.99 each. These are collections of Buffy Comics and they are printed on very heavy paper and cost a lot to ship (I think I paid more than $15 to ship one set of 4, 5, and 6. What are in these? One way to get a handle on an answer is to go here: Wikipedia entry on "Buffy Comics". Down at the bottom and to the right it often lists "Reprinted In" and some of the Omnibuses are indicated. So, you might want to visit an Ollie's to check it out.


Standing Still

P.S. - in the Wiki entry, towards the bottom, check out in "Tales of the Vampires" the Penciller and Inker Jason Alexander credits. They indicate it's thee Jason Alexander. Busy guy.

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wolfguard says:
(Sat Sep 7 15:43:36 2019
Edited: Sat Sep 7 16:05:38 2019
White Wings,

Jenny's Uncle was Romani and knew about vampires - and got killed by a
vampire. *g*

Christopher Marlowe,

I worked at two different convenient store chains at multiple locations.
Their policies were essentially those White Wing noted. Essentially,
cooperate and expedite the robbery, because the longer the robbery takes the
more likely the clerk or customers get hurt.

The first I worked was open from 7AM to 11PM, two 8-hour shifts. Usually
there was only one clerk working a shift, but you knew each other from shift
changes and the occasional two-person shift. One clerk I worked with was a
teacher full-time who worked part-time shifts. While I experienced a number
of snatch-and-run's I was never robbed. OTOH, the teacher-clerk was robbed
NINE times at this store. It got to be where the detectives would ask him,
"Do you need to see the mug book again?" (regular criminals)

The last robbery involved two men. One robber ran to the cooler and grabbed
a couple cases of beer while the other held Alan (fake name) at gun point
demanding he open the register. For some reason, Alan couldn't get the
register open and the robber was getting very angry. Fortunately, Alan got
it open before the robber ran out of patience. The robber grabbed the cash
and he and his buddy headed for the door. As they stepped out a car pulled
up to the door, headlights full on them. They took a hard left and ran
around the building disappearing into the dark. As the driver got out of his
car, Alan stepped outside and asked, "Did you see them?" Driver replied,
"Didn't see anything."

There have been times when I carried a gun, but not as a store clerk. I
intended to expedite a robbery, but if the robber indicated he was going
to tie-me up or take me to back cooler or store room, then I would kill the


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ChristopherMarlowe says:
(Sat Sep 7 11:09:09 2019
Good morning beta!

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ChristopherMarlowe says:
(Sat Sep 7 10:56:35 2019
wolfguard Thank you for
the links! Convenience store
robberies are a fair common crime
here, always accompanied by some
grainy photo of the robber. It
is rare that the robberies turn
violent, although 1 or 2 years
ago a young woman was shot over a
case or two of beer, that was
pretty shocking thing. I think
she may have attempted to prevent
the theft. So company policy may
or may not be right.

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white wings says:
(Sat Sep 7 04:16:39 2019
Happy Birthday Lady Buff, Little Willow, nitvid, and NuPhalanx!

DaddyCatALSO,Agent Cooper - Since Agent Cooper has just watched Primieval, he may have a more accurate impression of Adam's invulnerability. When they spoke of the source of his power being atomic, I didn't think they were speaking of how he kept going, but of his strength.

wolfguard, DaddyCatALSO, Agent Cooper - Many convenience store clerks are not allowed to have the wherewithal to defend themselves, and many store chains have established policies forbidding them to defend themselves or anyone else. In fact they often seem to fire clerks that fight back, even to protect customers. I believe the theory is that if they don't fight, they won't be hurt. It's iffy, either way.

Magic store proprietors can set their own policies, and any weapons they would use would not be regulated by the state. They seemed a mixed bag. We did see the woman in the magic store killed by Spike in Lover's Walk. She seemed to be an herbalist with a side business of minor charms and spells, and not inclined to think of the demon world. Mr. Bogarty seemed to be more of an antique dealer. But the BBS was familiar with Jenny's uncle, and knew who she was, and knew a lot about the magics that the Romani dealt in. If he was not Romani himself, he was Romani-adjacent, and he knew a lot about vampires. He would be more inclined to have defensive materials.

Dru was definitely not pleased, but if he was able to defend himself or was a fast talker, and she was in a hurry to get back and warn Angelus that the bad schoolteacher was going to restore his soul at any time, then she might well have left him, and he might well have left town instantly. She never spoke of killing him.

Agent Cooper - The possibility of an undead BBS has been considered, but (a)Dru was not in a good mood, (b) we should have seen him and didn't, and (c)it was much easier in the board shorthand to stick to RIGHT and WRONG, without adding a MAYBE. *g*

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wolfguard says:
(Sat Sep 7 02:56:50 2019
Christopher Marlowe,

"America's most violent jobs, in 5 charts"

The article is from December 2014 and looks at data from 2011-2013. Retails
workers held second place in number of workers killed on the job with 118.

"...Why? According to OSHA, exchanging money with the public, working late
at night, working in dangerous neighborhoods, and working where alcohol is
sold are all risk factors for workplace violence...



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wolfguard says:
(Sat Sep 7 02:41:23 2019
Christopher Marlowe,

From the "Los Angeles Times" February 21, 1992

Armed robbers keep gambling that they can hold up The Watch Co. in West Los

And they keep losing.

Two more were shot to death Thursday at the small shop where owner Lance
Thomas buys and sells expensive Rolex watches and antique pocket timepieces,
police said.

That brings the total to five killed and one wounded at the shop since
August, 1989....


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wolfguard says:
(Sat Sep 7 02:34:24 2019
Edited: Sat Sep 7 02:34:58 2019
Christopher Marlowe,

Big Data on death rates across different types of retail stores. For instance,
people who work at convenient stores or jewelry store may face greater risks
than people who work at book stores or candy stores.


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ChristopherMarlowe says:
(Sat Sep 7 02:22:48 2019
Edited: Sat Sep 7 02:23:17 2019

Big data on big bads?

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wolfguard says:
(Sat Sep 7 02:05:26 2019
Agent Cooper,

In The Real Me Buffy and/or Giles note the high death rate for the
Magic Box proprietors. They were speaking in the fall of 2000. Dru engaged the
BBS in the winter of 1998. So a period of just over two and a half years past.
How many proprietors or clerks had to die for Giles to consider it a high

What we need here is "Big Data". *g*


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ChristopherMarlowe says:
(Fri Sep 6 23:26:52 2019
AGent Cooper Actual long day or it just feels like a long day? I've experienced both!

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Agent Cooper says:
(Fri Sep 6 20:40:49 2019
How come nobody ever considers that Dru shared the Dark Gift with the BBS and made him into one of the undead?

20 minutes left, longest day at whup ever. Can't wait to get outta here!

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wolfguard says:
(Fri Sep 6 18:10:33 2019

DaddyCatALSO & White Wings,

I think the argument that the BBS' occupation and experience prepared him for
dealing with threats or assaults from demons and vampires is a valid one. That
said, a similar argument could be made for convenient stores and robbers and
yet now and then convenient store clerks get killed by robbers.

So, which way did the die roll for the BBS after the scene ended? As I recall,
Dru was not pleased with the BBS selling Jenny the orb of whatever. I believe
Dru may have even described the BBS as being "naughty" for having done so. One
does not want to be called 'naughty' by Dru. No good can come from it. *g*


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DaddyCatALSO says:
(Fri Sep 6 14:11:34 2019
white wings Agent Cooper wolfguard

Adam: I only recall the nuclear power pack as an explanation for why he didn't *eat8, in dialogue. His invulnerability seemed just part of his construction.

The shopkeeper's recognizing Dru doesn't mean they met before, just that he knew who she was. The weakness in the discussions hinge on they only discuss Drusilla's actions a choice and work from knowledge of the character.
Obviously the shopkeeper knew about vampires. Since his shop is open after dark, it just makes sense that he has taken e precautions ahead of time and has countermeasures on hand for vampires and some other monsters.
if she did decide to kill him, she'd have to get past any such countermeasures. she is very skilled at using her powers, so it's plausible she could have done just that. But nobody is perfect and maybe he did pull out something so e ffective it backed her down

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TheBirthdayGnomette says:
(Fri Sep 6 10:59:30 2019
Today Friday, September 6th 2019 C.E.

We have FOUR (4) Birthdays!

Lady Buff
Little Willow

Happy Birthday from the Bronze, to Lady Buff, Little Willow, nitvid, NuPhalanx

Numfar! Do the dance of joy. Elder, 'Through the Looking Glass''

to be added to the birthday list, please email

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white wings says:
(Fri Sep 6 03:15:47 2019
Happy Birthday Dear Mr. Fantasy, Mayven, Miss Dainty, Riley x 3, Roadrunner_94, and Wagner!

Agent Cooper - It's a good point. Clearly wolfguard is deficient in the spelling of ALIVE!

The thing that really annoyed me about Adam was that he was invulnerable because he was atomic powered. I fail to see why his power source made him invulnerable. That comes right out of superhero and supervillain novels. But it is apparently true in the Buffyverse. ;-)

Christopher Marlowe - I hope the interview was fruitful and the citizen's class informative!

wolfguard - I'm pretty sure that Dru met, and was not seen to kill, the BBS in Passion. The BBS knew who she was as soon as he saw her. If they had met before, he had gotten away before. We didn't see him killed, neither did Dru ever mention it, so I believe he managed to talk his way out or had some kind of protection available to him. I don't know it, but I believe it. *g* Mr. Bogarty (who died, but not at Dru's fangs) was definitely not the BBS, unless he'd had some really serious plastic surgery.

Yes, I was referencing the "It is known" phrase when I quoted the Urban Dictionary. Cut and pasted, to be precise.

We haven't had a serious naval battle since we put satellites up all over. Weather might hide a naval fleet, and there might be known gaps in coverage, but it's surely harder to hide now than it was before. I may be imagining just how good our coverage actually is, of course. There's a whole lot of Pacific Ocean, and we've likely been concentrating more on land areas than empty ocean. Still, the area between Taiwan and mainland China might be an area of interest.

The Allies in WWII managed to hide an entire set of invasion transports, but that was from the eyes of pilots being harassed. It would be harder now. At least, I think it would be, if anyone is watching. When I was skimming the net, I saw one estimation that Taiwan might be able to last a month, if it were lucky. That might have been an older estimate. That might be too long. But it's a pretty wide ocean. I don't know.

I agree, the British owed a lot to the Russian Front for turning Hitler's attention, but their campaign of attrition might have just been too discouraging. I don't know when the Germans learned about radar. Was it after the war ended? If so, it must have made the survivors grind their teeth.

In Afghanistan, the weaponry was well advanced, at least in terms of the power of the weapons. Remember that we were supplying a lot of armament at that time (which was probably later used against us). Ah yes, you covered the Stingers. But there were a lot of other things, I believe. Afghanistan may be the size of Texas, but it has mountains. Many tall mountains, with caves both natural and enhanced. Mountains suitable for ancient transportation, and not at all good for tanks and various other vehicles. Those have to stick to predictable ground. It was pretty well suited for guerilla warfare founded in ancient traditions emerging to pick and choose the modern parts that work. Unfortunately, it still is.

I don't know about the actual locals who are just trying to live on the land, but I suspect the Taliban, who are fiercely religious (as they define religion), are born from the ancient warlords and the influx of Saudi-type fighters. The local Afghanis and the city-bred Afghanis before the Taliban weren't encasing their women in purdahs, and forbidding them from learning how to read, and stoning them if they did.

I'm keeping my fingers crossed for Bogue Banks in the next few hours.

^ v
ChristopherMarlowe says:
(Fri Sep 6 03:07:40 2019
Apologies for not being aroundabouts tonight. A last minute afternoon interview and my citizen's police academy class started tonight!

^ v
Trivia Girl says:
(Thu Sep 5 23:07:03 2019
Sunnydale's Trivial Pursuit

Category: US Presidents
Question: Which President only served 32 days in office?
Answer: Harrison

Trivia President: notsoShyGirl!

^ v
wolfguard says:
(Thu Sep 5 17:23:09 2019
Agent Cooper,

A couple of my brothers live in eastern North Carolina. One has a home and a
business on one of the barrier islands. Atlanta looks to be sunny through the
weekend. We're a long way from the coast.


^ v
Agent Cooper says:
(Thu Sep 5 16:35:08 2019
Wolfguard: You misspelled "Alive."

BTW from what I can tell from the interwebs Dorian is going to miss your neck of the woods. But stay safe anyway in case it decides to take a left turn.

I keep hoping that thing just swings out to sea.

Triva Girl: Zaphod Breeblebrox. Who wasn't physically in office much of the time anyway. He just flitted around the galaxy doing as he pleased. How did he manage to run anything?

BUFFY REWATCH WITH DAUGHTER COOPER UPDATE: Last night we watched "Primeval." Lots of funny moments in that one. Mostly from Xander. "Am I alone in missing the Mayor?" (As team is discussing how to deal with Adam)
And, "Oh God, we're gonna die aren't we?" (At bottom of Elevator shaft as the team embarks on a dangerous mission to the Initiative to kill Adam, as Buffy and Willow share a moment and hug, Xander climbs down not knowing why they begin to both hug him and express their love for him.)

I had forgotten much of this ep and I'm glad I watched it again. It's very good, and the end scene where Buffy absorbs the power of all the previous slayers plus the heart, mind and spirit of Xander, Giles and Willow respectively to become basically a massively jacked up super powered slayer, was really intense. After acquiring that extra juice she proceeds to whip up on Adam, whom she couldn't even hurt before that, like he was nothing. Bonus - Stopping bullets with Slayer Power!

We both really liked this ep.

If I have one minor criticism of the ep it's that Adam was kind of a weak villain, and I mean that in the sense that his story arc was kind of brief and it he was basically a kind of a vehicle to hang a story on. I mean, the guy is immortal and almost invulnerable, but when they didn't need him anymore he just gets vanquished lickity split. So there's a whiff of Deus Machina to the ep. But that's a really minor quibble, I guess. And it's worth it to see Super Slayer Buffy mop the floor with Adam, so that makes up for it.

^ v
notsoShyGirl says:
(Thu Sep 5 12:59:22 2019
Trivia Girl
William Henry Harrison

^ v
Comma says:
(Thu Sep 5 12:43:01 2019
A big shout out, to all the military officers and NCOs, whom are taking care of moving thousands of troops and equipment from military bases along the coast. Most of all also have family members to move. Keep up the good work.


^ v
Trivia Girl says:
(Thu Sep 5 10:27:32 2019
Sunnydale's Trivial Pursuit

Category: US Presidents
Question: Which President only served 32 days in office?

^ v
TheBirthdayGnomette says:
(Thu Sep 5 10:20:46 2019
Today Thursday, Septembr 5th 2019 C.E.

We have SIX (6) Birthdays!

Dear Mr. Fantasy
Miss Dainty
Riley x 3

Happy Birthday from the Bronze, to Dear Mr. Fantasy, Mayven, Miss Dainty
Riley x 3, Roadrunner_94, Wagner

Buffy: Synchronized slaying. Faith: New Olympic category? 'Revelations'

to be added to the birthday list, please email

^ v
wolfguard says:
(Thu Sep 5 06:21:13 2019
White Wings,

Setting aside air support, both helicopter and fixed wing, the
Afghanistan/Soviet war was a relatively traditional
insurgency/counterinsurgency. The Afghans conducted raids and ambushes to
damage the Soviets' willingness and ability to hold the country. The Soviets
conducted raids and sweeps to damage the Afghans' willingness and ability to
contend against the Soviet forces and their puppet government. *g*

Afghanistan is the size of Texas and in 1979 had around 15 million people
According to the Wikipedia article on the war, the Soviet forces numbered
115,000 at peak and the Afghan Army, fighting with the Soviets, had around
65,000. The estimate for Afghan insurgents / freedom fighters is around
200,000-250,000. The Afghans would have been dispersed across the land and
the Soviets likely based in settlements and ~firebases. The Soviet forces
would have mostly been supplied overland, so some forces would be deployed
to protect the convoys, roads, bridges, etc. The Mujahiddeen would have got
together to ambush convoys and raid bases, etc. and then disperse and run by
to the hinterlands. The Soviets would have tried chasing or hunting them
down. This went on for eight or nine years till the Soviet government got
tired of burning candles and brought the troops home.

As I understand it, the Mujahideen fought helicopters by setting up
positions high enough in the mountains to be able to shoot down at
helicopters with RPG's, heavy machine guns, etc.1 Soviets would
have worked out counter measures which might have worked sometimes,
sometimes not. Soldiers adapt. Try new things.

I don't know if the locals became any more or less 'religious", because of
the war. I believe they became more anti-Russian and might have bonded a bit
with each other - for awhile. As for the foreigners who came to fight on the
side of the faithful, I'm sure some came away more "extreme" in their
beliefs. But, I also believe some left cynics. I don't know how Osama bin
Laden's worldview changed because of his experiences in the war, but I know
he hated the West and the conservative Gulf governments he believed were
handmaidens to the West.

1 CIA is said to have gotten Stinger missiles to the Mujahiddeen
and some believe this was critical towards persuading the Soviets to leave.
Others say the role of Stingers is oversold.


^ v
wolfguard says:
(Thu Sep 5 05:49:06 2019
White Wings,

Which episode had Dru's meeting with the BBS? Passion or the one just
before it? Whichever, I've always maintained that none of us can say with
certainty whether or not the BBS survived his encounter with Dru, because he
was still alive when the scene ended. One can infer that Dru preceded to
kill him, but we don't know. That said, Mr. Bogarty was killed on October 3,
2000. This was the date of the original airing of The Real Me. In
this episode Buffy, Willow, Giles, and Tara discover the dead shopkeeper in
the Magic Box. Tara identified the dead man as Mr. Bogarty. If this Mr.
Bogarty is the same BBS of the infamous debate, then the BBS survived his
meeting with Dru, but not with the nefarious Harm Gang. If it's not the same
Bogarty, then the debate continues. *g*

With respect to the Urban Dictionary, are you referencing the "It is known"

One lesson of naval warfare is it can be difficult to find and fix a naval
force that does not want to be found and fixed. Often naval battles have
occurred, because one side was fixed in place by the nature of is mission;
for instance, an amphibious invasion. I imagine if China ever invades Taiwan
they will try to time it for when the US is engaged elsewhere and they will
try to make it a surprise attack done quickly.1 But China's long
term credibility will be on the line. If they turn tail they will be seen as
a paper dragon. Their future as Asian Hegemon rides on success; however,
bloody and costly. In for fen, in for a yuan. *g*

1 The advantages of surprise can often vanish quickly, so a
surprise attack should also be a fast attack.

Much of Europe fell to the Nazis during the spring of 1940. Germany then
turned towards Britain. "The Battle of Britain" was fought during the
summer, perhaps into fall. The Germans failed to gain air supremacy to
conduct a naval invasion and Hitler got impatient to move forward on
preparing for the invasion of the USSR, so he dialed down the air attacks.
Britain's final downfall could wait his victory over the USSR.

Besides the pilots, kudos to all those who developed and operated the radar
system that allowed those few pilots to be at the right place at the right


^ v
wolfguard says:
(Thu Sep 5 05:08:14 2019
White Wings,

Intended to post on Afghanistan, and see your most recent post. Composing
reply now. *g*


^ v
white wings says:
(Thu Sep 5 04:41:10 2019
Happy Birthday Dragonlady, LadyInBlack, Rather Poetic, Teen AK, and ZedsDead!

lostinamerica - My hands certainly thought so!

Agent Cooper - Right! Alive!

wolfguard - Very extremely WRONG! The BBS survived his meeting with Dru. It was not said, it was not shown, it is not known.

The Urban Dictionary explained that phrase as "an expression indicating that a given idea is based more on superstition or outright bullsh*t than on fact". OTOH, it is known that chocolate is good. *g*

Falklands: Some navies expect to receive damage and go on fighting. I'm not sure they all do. And their masters back home who are trying to maneuver different forces and weighing that with money, resources, and the will of their own people may have very different points of view, depending on their own experience and will, what is available, and what they are trying to achieve. I'm not saying the Chinese don't have that will and those resources and skill, just that it's pretty untried.

Pacific War: The Japanese did bring wounded pilots home, at least that was the experience of the pilot that I mentioned. But he had sustained an eye injury, and without treatment not available in the theater, he would be a wasted resource. I think he may have spent some time training younger pilots. But he was sent back to lead younger pilots, and by that time the air war had completely changed. When it began he had a sense of complete mastery of the skies, and when he returned the US planes were different and vastly more numerous, and the pilots were better. Eventually he was ordered to lead a kamikaze mission, which he survived only because the weather was so bad that they couldn't find their target. But one man's experience does not make what you said about their general use of pilots untrue. The British were in a similar situation in the Battle of Britain, although I think they cared a lot more about the survival of their pilots. There were just so "few", and generally they didn't survive long enough for rotations. Indeed, they couldn't rotate "back home" out of battle. But the extreme phase of that didn't last as long as the air war in the Pacific, either.

^ v
lostinamerica says:
(Thu Sep 5 02:52:59 2019
ChristopherMarlowe--Yes, good work shoes are a must, maybe the ones chefs

And give the baking job a chance, all the while thinking of how to translate the
skills you're using and learning to an office environment, like white
said :)

cc wolfguard, Agent Cooper

white wings--Yikes, that experience was a little too hands-on :D

^ v
wolfguard says:
(Thu Sep 5 00:24:33 2019
Christopher Marlowe,

Very likely. Many fans were very angry with the final season, especially with
Daenarys' fate. There's a petition for the complete rewrite of the season. The
last I checked there were 1.5 million signatures to it. *g*


^ v
ChristopherMarlowe says:
(Thu Sep 5 00:12:46 2019
wolfguard Ha! Thank you. I wonder if there is a way to mash up Game of Thrones with Buffy.

^ v
wolfguard says:
(Wed Sep 4 23:50:51 2019
Christopher Marlowe,

The line is not from BTVS, but from The Game of Thrones. It's a
Dothraki phrase that brands something just said or observed as being a well
known or accepted truth. For example ...

"Chocolate is good"

"Me nem nesa" (It is known)



^ v
ChristopherMarlowe says:
(Wed Sep 4 22:30:45 2019
wolfguard I don't remember the source of that line!

^ v
ChristopherMarlowe says:
(Wed Sep 4 21:44:48 2019
wolfguard I'm not 100% what he did, but I believe he was sent to Kuwait and served a year there.

^ v
Trivia Girl says:
(Wed Sep 4 21:38:58 2019
Sunnydale's Trivial Pursuit

Category: Angel
Question: Actor Mark Lutz played
what major character on Angel?
Answer: Groo

Trivia Master: notsoShyGirl

^ v
wolfguard says:
(Wed Sep 4 20:33:33 2019
Agent Cooper,

The BBS died October 3, 2000. "It is known."1

1 Who recognizes the source of this line?


^ v
Agent Cooper says:
(Wed Sep 4 20:10:27 2019
Trivia Girl: The Boogity Boogity Shopkeeper. Who I'm sure will get a recurring role in the reboot series, as himself. Since he is ALIVE.

^ v
wolfguard says:
(Wed Sep 4 18:35:17 2019
Christopher Marlowe,

He was called back in 2006? What did he do?

White Wings,

I will have to set aside Afghanistan and China for now, but have time for
Falklands and Guadalcanal. *g*

I brought up the Falklands, because it's one of the few instances of
submarines being used in combat since WWII (not Cold War ops) and to show
Navies expect to receive damage and destruction and to go on fighting.
1 There was period of time between Argentina capturing the
Falklands and the British forces arriving in theatre. One analyst believes
the Argentines made major mistake in using this time to move land forces to
the islands rather than air forces. If they had done the latter, the
Falklands would have served as an 'unsinkable aircraft carrier' and the air
forces would have spent less time and fuel going to and from combat (most of
them were flying from the mainland during the war).

Pacific War

The original US pre-war plan was to assault across the central Pacific from
one island to another. We did this, but we also fought up from Australia, in
part because that's where MacArthur had fled to and in part because the
Japanese after capturing southeast Asia headed for Australia. If the
Japanese had not threaten Australia, we might not put as much effort down
under. As it was, to keep the lines of communication open with Australia we
could not let the Japanese captured Guadalcanal.

The Japanese kept their pilots in the war from day 1 until they were killed.
Once our pilots had some experience under the belt, they were sent stateside
to train the next group of pilots. Consequently, American combat experience
got shared with the new guys and the Japanese combat experience did not.

1 There was a time early on in the Pacific campaign when the US
had only one functioning carrier, the others having been sunk or being
repaired. More in this tonight! *g*


^ v
notsoShyGirl says:
(Wed Sep 4 12:50:34 2019
Trivia Girl
The Goosalugg

^ v
Trivia Girl says:
(Wed Sep 4 10:21:59 2019
Sunnydale's Trivial Pursuit

Category: Angel
Question: Actor Mark Lutz played what major character on Angel?

^ v
TheBirthdayGnomette says:
(Wed Sep 4 10:16:20 2019
Today Wednesday, September 4th 2019 C.E.

We have FIVE (5) Birthdays!

Rather Poetic
Teen AK

Happy Birthday from the Bronze, to Dragonlady, LadyInBlack, Rather Poetic, Teen AK, ZedsDead

Simon: Captain's a good fighter, he must know how to handle a sword. Zoe: I think he knows which end to hold. 'Shindig'

to be added to the birthday list, please email

^ v
white wings says:
(Wed Sep 4 04:34:46 2019
Belated Happy Birthday abre, clarrie, Ebdim9th, IceLord, Jake, Maylia57, pfeifferpack, Petrona, and WallEyed!

Happy Birthday Amezri, Enchanted, Lady of the Lake, Lavaelf, FreckledFacedAngel, and VarneytheVampyre!

lostinamerica - Amen to the blue-collar support. The country runs on blue collar workers, is fed by them, made by them, built by them, and repaired by them. There are downsides to working with your hands. I remember that a friend and I reroofed a 60' shed row barn, and we had to finish the roof cap before a blue norther arrived. This involved spreading tar, laying the cap on it, and nailing lead head nails through the cap. So we were on the top, on a hill, watching the clouds blow in with lightning. The temperature dropped 20-30 degrees in a short period of time. The tar stiffened. It got dark. We'd take turns holding the flashlight while the other hammered lead-heads and thumbs. The next day I was in my warm office and comfy chair, at my computer, with raw and sore hands, thinking "I love my job". But our horses were dry that winter and for years thereafter. We were proud of that. *g* One of my grandfathers started working life in the meat packing houses of Chicago. He did wind up a mining engineer, then a professor, then losing almost everything in '29, working three jobs to support his family during the depression, and winding up fairly prosperous in the end. But to the day he died at 94, he would never touch ground meat. *g*

Christopher Marlowe - I think it's important to ask whether you can stand being a baker. It sure helps if you have a fun bunch of people to work with. I would find standing all the time challenging. As wolfguard suggested, very comfortable shoes would be a good investment. Aside from that, you are working in a place that has to move large numbers of supplies around, deal with a mail order business, handle personnel and payroll, and keep all kinds of books and inventories. It might be that just being there and being known to them might give you an edge to other jobs, if they have a preference for in-house hires.

wolfguard - I have tried to ponder your last post on various world affairs, but I didn't get too deep, I'm afraid.

I think that your analysis of Afghanistan is beautifully Kiplingesque. I believe that it has been true, and to some extent it still is true, and someday it may be true again. But the Soviet invasion, and the stresses and alliances required for ancient customs to adapt to fighting modern equipment, not to mention the tendency of countries such as Saudi Arabia to ship their ardent difficult youth (a practice I had forgotten and you had not) abroad brought about some changes. There was a broadening of experience, and a deepening of religious extremes, and an increase in the desire for power and the spread of true belief. I think the hill people decided that they would take over the cities for themselves. As for the women, who at one time had education and a degree of freedom under a more secular regime, the current negotiations with the Taliban make me ill. But either you go in and really try to conquer and occupy completely and stay there, and possibly exercise some brand of brutality to suppress revolt, or you do the best you can with what you have. Neither seems very good. I wish we could just grab the women who wanted to go and remove them.

We'll see what happens in Turkey, with Imamoglu. He may not survive. Physically, I mean. That is the Middle East, after all. Or he may survive to be a savior or his own brand of problem.

The British might have paid, but they won. The people in the Falklands were apparently pleased. The people in Argentina still brood over the Malvinas. Was there a point? I think there was, oh yes, invasion of islands. Specifically, Taiwan. But the Chinese are not like the Argentines. On the other hand, the Taiwanese are not like the Falklanders, and we are somewhat more powerful than the British, if we wish to be. I think we can agree that if the game of chicken stopped working, there would be a lot of blood and pain.

For Guadalcanal, I'm kind of fuzzy about the strategies at any given time. But if the US wanted to deny Japan a base useful for them and painful to us, did we not also want a base that would do the same for us and to them? If you are going a'hopping around islands, you want to choose your places strategically.
My only direct information about Guadalcanal came from an uncle who had fought there. He didn't speak of the fighting, but did once tell about desperately diving for cover in an air raid. He found himself up to his neck in a latrine trench. But otherwise unharmed.

Chinese communism was never precisely Marxist. I mean, you wouldn't expect the Chinese to slavishly adopt a barbarian philosophy without significant adaptations. I'm not sure anyone was ever a true believer in Marxism, Russian or otherwise. The whole business of elevating the proletariat by taking all they have, re-educating them, killing the dissenters, and trying to make them into obedient automatons just sounds so much like the line from The King and I - "might they not protect me out of all I own?"

The Chinese have tacked significantly in their various regimes, from brutality to looser control, and back again. Dogs are bad. Dogs are good. Ancient traditions are to be destroyed. Ancient traditions are to be respected. Commercialism is evil. Commercialism is good. I have a couple of pendants made from shards of antique vases shattered during the Cultural Revolution. They were gathered and saved and made into jewelry for tourists, and sold in Hong Kong.

From your footnotes, the first kamikazes were inexperienced. When they ran out of even those, they started choosing older pilots. There's an autobiography of one of the prominent Japanese pilots, Saburo Sakai, called Samurai. I haven't read it for some years, but I found it very readable and rather poignant. You might like it. Spoiler: he survived. *g*

^ v
ChristopherMarlowe says:
(Wed Sep 4 01:55:05 2019
Edited: Wed Sep 4 01:56:37 2019
wolfguard Funny you should mention the GI Bill, I know a man who completed his Bachelor's Degree using the GI Bill. He was 71 when he graduated in May of this year. I believe he was able to use the GI Bill because he was recalled into active service in 2006/2007.

^ v
wolfguard says:
(Wed Sep 4 00:30:10 2019
Christopher Marlowe,

While a senior in high school I told my father I wanted to go to commercial
diving school. No way! It's college for you. This from a man who dropped out
of high school to work during the Depression. He lied about being a high
school graduate to get into pilot training during WWII. In flight school he
told me flying was easy, but he had spent long hours in the latrine after taps
so he could study the math. *g* After the war, many or most servicemen used
the GI Bill to go to college. My father used the money to buy his first house.
He went into sales and did quite well. He believed there were only two ways to
learn, observe and read.


^ v
ChristopherMarlowe says:
(Wed Sep 4 00:03:39 2019
wolfguard, lostinamerica, Agent Cooper

The lack of candidates to fill trade positions is has been a problem for a long time. The push for a typical four-year college has overshadowed everything else. Trade professions are very well-paying jobs and I don't think folks really understand that. Presenting all possible career paths: military, trade or other educational should be part and parcel from high-school on up.

I think I became really aware of this through Mike Rowe, host of Dirty Jobs, he really has been one of the top advocates for the types of jobs his show feature.

^ v
Trivia Girl says:
(Tue Sep 3 23:58:16 2019
Sunnydale's Trivial Pursuit

Category: Buffy
Question: What actress played the character of Jenny Calendar?
Answer: Robia La Morte

Trivia Master: notsoShyGirl@

^ v
wolfguard says:
(Tue Sep 3 23:28:44 2019
Christopher Marlowe,

Invest in good work shoes.


^ v
ChristopherMarlowe says:
(Tue Sep 3 22:09:09 2019
Edited: Tue Sep 3 22:15:46 2019
Agent cooper, lostinamerica

I had some small experience during
college working on an assembly line
putting parts in a computee board.
The most positive memory of that
experience was the other people on
the line. They were a fun bunch..

The people here seem to be the same
way. But going from sitting 8
hours a day to standing 8 hours a
day is a radical shift for me and
it will take quite a while for my
vody to get used to it.

^ v
Agent Cooper says:
(Tue Sep 3 17:23:30 2019
Chris Marlowe: So the take away here is that all your old pals here on the bronze are getting free cookies in the mail. Amiright?

For the record, I like chocolate chip. :-)

Honestly, that sounds like a fun job. Alot more fun then mine, anyway. At least you're not stuck at desk all day long.

^ v
notsoShyGirl says:
(Tue Sep 3 14:23:18 2019
Trivia Girl
Robia LaMorte

^ v
lostinamerica says:
(Tue Sep 3 12:40:42 2019
ChristopherMarlowe--I come
from a blue-collar background and
there's no shame in it--my one
grandfather was able to buy a house
and raise four kids on a janitor's
salary, same goes for the other
one, who was a steelworker. You
just be the best you can be--
everybody forgets the world can't
run without blue-collar workers :)

^ v
Trivia Girl says:
(Tue Sep 3 10:23:38 2019
Sunnydale's Trivial Pursuit

Category: Buffy
Question: What actress played the character of Jenny Calendar?

^ v
TheBirthdayGnomette says:
(Tue Sep 3 10:14:47 2019
Today is Tuesday, September 3rd 2019 C.E.

We have FIVE (5) Birthdays!

Lady of the Lake
Varney the Vampyre

Happy Birthday from the Bronze, to Amezri, Enchanted, Lady of the Lake, Lavaelf, FreckledFacedAngel, VarneytheVampyre

I love the smell of desperate librarian in the morning. Snyder, 'Gingerbread'

to be added to the birthday list, please email

^ v
wolfguard says:
(Tue Sep 3 02:46:11 2019
Christopher Marlowe,

I once read a story told by a person who was involved in assessing astronaut
candidates in the 1960's. There were many more candidates than open spots so
they were given a lot of leeway in the tests that they used. One was to have
the candidates step barefooted into a container of crushed ice and water and
time how long they could tolerate the cold before stepping out. Someone asked
what significance this had to the demands of being an astronaut? They reply?
It test their desire to be an astronaut. *g*

Trades, OTOH, don't seem to draw as many applicants. There are frequent news
stories of companies looking for such people and they seem to be less people
than job openings. A few months ago, Popular Mechanics ran an article
describing the nature, pro's, con's and training required to be a carpenter,
plumber, electricians, car mechanic, etc.


^ v
ChristopherMarlowe says:
(Tue Sep 3 01:50:32 2019
wolfguard Income combined with type of job. Most my life, I worked in a financial-services institution and then an engineering firm.

Now I am working as a baker at retail store, in part because I can't seem to get hired for any office-type work other than receptionist.

I basically walked into this retail store during their job fair and was pretty much hired on the spot, despite a lack of any experience in retail or with bakeries.

With the other office-type jobs, it felt like I had to jump through multiple-hoops just to be even considered.

^ v
wolfguard says:
(Tue Sep 3 01:06:36 2019
Christopher Marlowe,

What definitions are you using for "class", "blue-collar", "white-collar",


^ v
ChristopherMarlowe says:
(Mon Sep 2 23:48:04 2019
wolfguard I am beginning to ponder the different classes of American society. For many years, I was essentially a 'white collar' worker, now I appear to be a 'blue collar' worker and I'm not sure how I feel about that.

^ v
ChristopherMarlowe says:
(Mon Sep 2 21:28:17 2019
losinamerica[/b. How are you
doing? I started a new job, a
retail position to pay the bills.

^ v
lostinamerica says:
(Mon Sep 2 12:59:58 2019
Happy Birthday Ebdim9th and

^ v
Trivia Girl says:
(Mon Sep 2 10:24:10 2019
No question today, but some Labor
Day Trivia!

1. The idea first became public
in 1882.

In September 1882, the unions of
New York City decided to have a
parade to celebrate their members
being in unions, and to show
support for all unions. At least
20,000 people were there, and the
workers had to give up a days
pay to attend. There was also a
lot of beer involved in the

2. The New York parade inspired
other unions. Other regions
started having parades, and by
1887, Oregon, Massachusetts, New
York, New Jersey, and Colorado
made Labor Day a state holiday.

3. How did the Haymarket Affair
influence Labor Day?

On May 4, 1886, a bomb exploded
at a union rally in Chicagos
Haymarket Square, which led to
violence that killed seven police
officers and four others. The
incident also led to May 1 being
celebrated in most nations as
Workers Day. The U.S. government
chose Labor Day instead to avoid
a celebration on May 1 and New
York's unions had already picked
the first Monday in September for
their holiday.

4. Two people with similar names
are credited with that first New
York City event. Matthew Maguire,
a machinist, and Peter McGuire, a
carpenter, have been linked to
the 1882 parade. The men were
from rival unions; in 2011, Linda
Stinson, a former U.S. Department
of Labors historian, said she
didn't know which man should be
credited - partially because
people over the years confused
them because of their similar-
sounding names.

5. Grover Cleveland helped make
Labor Day a national holiday.

After violence related to the
Pullman railroad strike,
President Cleveland and lawmakers
in Washington wanted a federal
holiday to celebrate labor - and
not a holiday celebrated on May
1. Cleveland signed an act in
1894 establishing the federal
holiday; most states had already
passed laws establishing a Labor
Day holiday by that point. Sen.
James Henderson Kyle of South
Dakota introduced S. 730 to make
Labor Day a federal legal holiday
on the first Monday of September.
It was approved on June 28, 1894.

6. The holiday has evolved over
the years.

In the late 19th century,
celebrations focused on parades
in urban areas. Now the holiday
is a celebration that honors
organized labor with fewer
parades, and more activities. It
also marks the perceived end of
the summer season.

7. Can you wear white after Labor

This old tradition goes back to
the late Victorian era, where it
was a fashion faux pas to wear
any white clothing after the
summer officially ended on Labor
Day. The tradition isnt really
followed anymore.
explains the logic behind the
fashion trend white indicated
you were still in vacation mode
at your summer cottage.

8. Labor Day is the unofficial
end of Hot Dog season. The
National Hot Dog and Sausage
Council says that between
Memorial Day and Labor Day,
Americans will eat 7 billion hot

9. How many people are union
members today?

According to the Bureau of Labor
Statistics, there were 14.8
million union members in the
workforce in 2017. There were
17.7 million in 1983.

10. What is the biggest union

The National Education
Association has about 3 million
people who are members, including
inactive and lifetime members.

^ v
TheBirthdayGnomette says:
(Mon Sep 2 10:09:46 2019
Today Monday, September 2nd 2019 C.E.
Labor Day!

We have NINE (1) Birthdays!


Happy Birthday from the Bronze, to abre, clarrie, Ebdim9th, IceLord, Jake
Maylia57, pfeifferpack, Petrona, WallEyedt

Bar maid! Bring me stronger ale! And some plump, succulent babies to eat!Olaf the Troll, 'Triangle'

to be added to the birthday list, please email

^ v
wolfguard says:
(Mon Sep 2 05:00:27 2019
White Wings,

Thank you. :)


^ v
white wings says:
(Mon Sep 2 04:32:51 2019
wolfguard - I hope he stays safe. I hope he evacuates. But whatever, I hope he and his family are safe.

^ v
wolfguard says:
(Mon Sep 2 03:52:18 2019
White Wings,

Yes. Home and business on Bogue Banks, a 20-mile long barrier island.


^ v
white wings says:
(Mon Sep 2 03:34:04 2019
Happy Birthday elover, Marilee, RikkrP, Vanessa, Vviolet!

Belated Happy Birthday AimlessMind, Confessor Tee, FYI, Melaka, Risa, Rose, Whatever, and Witchmum!

Good evening Christopher Marlowe! It looks as though people are occupied IRL this weekend!

lostinamerica - Oh dear.

My nephew is walking on air. Of the three universities to which he has some degree of allegiance, all three won games this weekend. I don't know about one, one was unexpected, and the third was also mine, and we didn't know what would happen. The competition may not have been strong, but at least we were better. *g* It's different than it was in my day, the glory days, when we didn't lose. *cough*Except bowl games to Notre Dame, and we don't talk about that.*cough*

wolfguard - Noted, but I'm not in condition to think about foreign affairs. I have been watching the weather, though. Your brother on the barrier island?

^ v
ChristopherMarlowe says:
(Mon Sep 2 00:01:19 2019
Good evening beta!

^ v
TheBirthdayGnomette says:
(Sun Sep 1 22:03:46 2019
Edited: Mon Sep 2 10:10:14 2019
Today Sunday, September 1st 2019 C.E.

We have FIVE (5) Birthdays!


Happy Birthday from the Bronze, to elover, Marilee, RikkrP, Vanessa, Vviolet

Zombies! Hyena people! Snyder! Student, 'The Prom''

to be added to the birthday list, please email

^ v
ChristopherMarlowe says:
(Sun Sep 1 12:46:41 2019
Good morning beta! It's Sunday! Be Best today!

^ v
lostinamerica says:
(Sun Sep 1 12:45:46 2019
white wings--Ah, a loss to a
25-point underdog--I guess our season
will look much like the last :(

A friend texted she had hope for
Tennessee's season . .for about 5
minutes :D

^ v
wolfguard says:
(Sun Sep 1 03:51:46 2019
Christopher Marlowe,

Such a slow night that I actually read Microsoft's service agreement
straight through, beginning to end. *g*

White Wings,

The common wisdom is Afghanistan cannot be conquered, but a deeper
understanding of its history shows that those parts which are important can
be conquered- cities, towns, and main agricultural areas. What you don't try
to conquer are the hill and mountain folks. Now and then they will come down
to raid. When you can you stop them or punish them, but you don't get
overwrought by it. A historian who specialized in Afghanistan sometimes a
foreigner controlling the cities might annoy enough of the mountain people
that they will stop fighting among themselves, band together, and set about
harassing the foreigners till they pack up and leave. Once this is
accomplished they get back to fighting among themselves.

The lesson I take from this is if you believe you need to control
Afghanistan then focus on the settlements and don't annoy the mountain
people. If you're daring, then you might try allying with some of the
mountain people to fight the other mountain people. If you're daring, smart,
and lucky you might be able to keep them fighting each other without allying
with any of them. Though in the end, is it worth the candle. If you believe
women and girls in Afghanistan have natural rights for (fill in the blank),
then you probably have to stay in the country or accept there are limits
between what you want and what you can have.

In recent elections Erdogan's party loss several of the major cities,
including Istanbul. Erdogan was able to force Istanbul to repeat the
elections only for Ekrem Imamoglu to win again by a larger margin.

The Falklands War was fought between British sailors and Marines and
Argentine pilots and soldiers. The Argentine pilots made the British pay
dearly for their success.1

The US did not enter the Guadalcanal campaign intending it as a jump-off
base. The US entered to prevent Japan from creating an air and naval base
that would block the sea-line of communications between the US and
Australia. Once the campaign was won - and the New Guinea campaign, then we
did begin island hopping north towards the Philippines. We were also island-
hopping across the islands, east to west, from Hawaii to the Philippines and
from there north towards Japan. The last big island taken was Okinawa in
April 1945. The US lost over 30 warships conducting that invasion. Most were
sunk by kamikazes.2

Taiwan is important to China for both emotional and strategic reasons. While
the Chinese leaders call themselves communists and the CCP is the titular
ruler of the country, I'm much less certain the top leaders are true
believers or see the world through Marxist lens.3 They are
Chinese authoritarians - what Chinese emperor was not?. They mix and match
ideologies. Mao had no use for Confucianism and punished those who did. Xi
sees Confucianism as a useful tool. There are Chinese Marxists who contested
the post-Mao Communist party, because they did not see the party leaders as
true communists. This is not defense of communism, just respect for reality
as I understand it in China today. *g*

1 I believe the British played a significant role in training the
Argentina air force.

2 A picket line of destroyers and perhaps destroyer escorts were
thrown north to detect incoming Japanese aircraft. I believe this was our
first experience with kamikazes or at least the massive use of kamikazes.
These Japanese pilots were not very experienced pilots. Take-off, navigate
that away till you see a US warship and then fly into it. Well, the first
ships some saw were the destroyers in the picket line. The USS Laffey
(DD-724) was hit by SIX kamikazes and four bombs. Her crew kept her afloat
and she's museum ship at Patriots Point, SC. I've visited. World War II
destroyers were much smaller than today's destroyers. I've no idea how she
survived and have to believe the Japanese planes after hitting continued in
debris back into the sea.

3 Unlike the first generation Soviets, Lenin-Trotsky-Stalin, who
did see the world as true believers.


^ v
white wings says:
(Sun Sep 1 03:16:57 2019
Fairly active off board. Jumping up and
down around me, agonized howls, victory
dances. Football with family.

^ v
ChristopherMarlowe says:
(Sun Sep 1 01:54:11 2019
A slow night!

^ v
TheBirthdayGnomette says:
(Sat Aug 31 21:51:29 2019
Today Saturday, August 31st 2019 C.E.

We have EIGHT (8) Birthdays!

Confessor Tee

Happy Birthday from the Bronze, to AimlessMind, Confessor Tee, FYI, Melaka, Risa, Rose, Whatever, Witchmum

No, it's shiny! I like to meet new people. They've all got stories... Kaylee, 'Serenity'''

to be added to the birthday list, please email

^ v
white wings says:
(Sat Aug 31 21:42:51 2019
Christopher Marlowe - Fall? Well, the last buck that went through my yard was no longer in velvet. It's 95 in the shade, 102 in the west sun, and 97 on the websites. Green where watered, straw-colored where not watered. Crepe myrtles are still blooming a little, and the Pride of Barbados bushes are brilliant orange. There are fluffy clouds in the sky as opposed to endless blue.

I just realized I'd better run out for some snacks to get family through an evening of football that may not be triumphant. ;-)

^ v
ChristopherMarlowe says:
(Sat Aug 31 19:14:10 2019
Good afternoon white wings! What does fall tend to look like in Texas?

^ v
white wings says:
(Sat Aug 31 18:24:08 2019
lostinamerica - Indeed. Family
dinner arranged around it tonight, with
contingency plans for simultaneous games
for some being made.

^ v
lostinamerica says:
(Sat Aug 31 17:47:43 2019
And college football is back :D

^ v
white wings says:
(Sat Aug 31 17:18:55 2019
Good afternoon, Beta!

^ v
white wings says:
(Sat Aug 31 06:44:47 2019
Happy Birthday jenpro, Samuri Cat, Xanderphile !

wolfguard - I will give you links if you like for "Iran Side Deals", but you might prefer to google them yourself. It didn't seem to me that you have to read too deeply on any of the results to get some information. I don't want to point you to a POV that is too slanted for you to enjoy the reading, and I don't know your preferred sites. I thought that there was some consensus over bare minimum points, if not the response to them.

I don't think that Trump brought two feuding enemies together in deep friendship for the first time ever. I think the problem for them was taking it farther than very back door communications, and going public. I suspect they'd been scared deeply by Obama. Neither party liked the Iran deal one little bit. Trump held out hope for survival for one and an easier survival for the other, and made it not only palatable, but look wise and statesmanlike, to start dealing with each other in the sight of their allies (and foes). I guess you could credit the Obama policy, but I'm not willing to do that. He just softened them up. *g*

The Saudi royal family is pulling a balancing act with their people and their fanatical religious faction. It may not last forever, but they have a lot of strength and control. There have been attacks, but the ones inside the kingdom don't fare very well.

I'm not sure it's possible for us to characterize Afghanistan. We know things that have happened. I think I'll stick to Kipling for the flavor. It may well be possible these days to invade Russia in winter, just as it was possible to invade the desert and navigate. Afghanistan? Not yet. Even if one killed all the inhabitants, they might spring up from the land anew as from dragon's teeth. If you want to try with logic and scholarly exposition, you might get somewhere, but you'll still miss things. IMO *g*

I like the marble cake analogy.

Every now and then these days Erdogan can't get all of his people behind him. It seems to be partly a struggle between the country religious and the city seculars, but when a city seems to be on the verge of cutting loose, it discovers that the guy they put in power in the beginning has too much power, and too many ways to avoid any peaceful attempt to curb him. It's hard to say where that will go, but it's not looking good.

The British couldn't afford to lose too much of their capability in the Falklands, and it wasn't that central to their existence. They did win, though. The Argentine navy vs. the British navy was not a fair fight. I'm told that in Argentina, one does NOT refer to the Malvinas as "Falklands". WWII was an existential fight. At Guadalcanal, we felt we needed to win. If one is going to engage in island hopping, one has to establish leaping bases somewhere. But I think we were starting to get our manufacturing capability lined up, and while the losses of men were grievous, the ships could be replaced in time.

Conquering Taiwan would be a balancing act of how much loss could be inflicted on the invader vs. how much capacity and will possessed by the invader. I agree with you, I doubt that the Communist Chinese really care how much damage they would cause. It's the principle of the thing. But while Taiwan may be an emotional sticking point, it's not an existential threat, unless they are looking at it becoming a base for an enemy. Then it starts looking like a Cuban Missile Crisis.

^ v
wolfguard says:
(Sat Aug 31 03:06:32 2019
Agent Cooper,


"...And they are EVERYWHERE..." (US submarines)

The USN has ~290 warships. At no time are all at sea deployed. As a rough
rule of thumb, ships are in port being maintained or repaired, at sea
preparing for deployment, deployed.

Roughly once a month, the United States Naval Institute puts out a ~Fleet
Tracker~ article showing US Navy and Marine activities around the world. It
includes a chart showing deployments. In mid-August 2019 the US Navy had 100
ships deployed world-wide with 50 of those ships actually underway deployed,
i.e. at sea doing missions.

The largest number of deployed ships, 57, were in the 7th Fleet, our naval
forces in the western Pacific. These are the ships that would be available
to respond to an attack on Taiwan today.

US Submarines

The USN has two types of submarines: Ballistic Missile and Attack. The
following I'm doing off memory -

There are 18 ballistic missile submarines. They are part of our nuclear
triad and would not be in Taiwan straits.

The rest of the submarines are attack. Three are of the Seawolf-class.
Originally there were to be more, but while very, very capable they are also
very, very expensive. I believe they are tasked with very special missions.
But I could be wrong. *g*

The other ~48 attack submarines are divided between the Los Angeles-class
and the Virginia-class. The former are the older submarines and there are
around 40 of them. The Virgina-class are the new attack subs and there are
around 8 or so in service. As new Virginia-class subs are built and
commissioned older Los Angeles-class subs are retired. As I recall, the Navy
plans on building 2 Virgina's a year, but they may be falling behind.
Recently I've seen one projection where we'd be down to 41 attack

Let's use this mid-August figure of 100 ships deployed out of 290 ships in
the name as a number to work with. How many ships are available to be
"everywhere"? Around 1/3. How many were deployed in the 7th Fleet? 57. How
many were submarines? Using the same rule of thumb of 1/3, then perhaps 13-
14 attack submarines were deployed around the world AND if the 7th FLT had
around half of all ships, then let's say they had half of all the deployed
attack submarines, around 7.

Seven is an impressive number, but unless we're expecting an immediate
invasion, then some of those boats1 are going to be elsewhere -
the Pacific is a big place and some of the 7 FLT's ships deploy to the
Indian Ocean. But of course if we see signs that the Chinese are looking to
slip across the straits, then we could move the subs closer, yes?

AUG 20xx: Chinese military forces stand-to along coast across from Taiwan.
American forces move towards straits and as they arrive ...
Chinese stand-down. Just kidding!

OCT 20xx: Chinese military forces stand-to ...
American forces rush forward!
Chinese stand-down: Just kidding!

DEC 20xx: Repeat

When will they not be kidding? Can we afford to rush forward every time? And
what if the exercise is a way of luring us into a trap or diverting us from
another area. For that matter, perhaps the Chinese wait till we are occupied
across the world and then invade?

As for locating submarines, the US ran SOSUS (sound surveillance system) to
detect Soviet submarines. Usually (?) the system was deployed in ocean
terrain through which submarines had to transit to go from one large body of
water to another.

One of China's concerns is that the country is ringed by large islands that
could make it difficult for Chinese ships, commercial and war, to get out to
sea (China calls them the First and Second island chains). The island
chains could also be seen as a silver lining if and when China set up its
own SOSUS to detect US subs coming towards Taiwan, etc.

And of course there's good old espionage. During the Cold War the Walker
family was spying for the Soviets. The Walkers were sailors. The Soviets
always seemed to know where our surface ships were ...

Perhaps there's a Walker or two in the Silent Service?


"It's one of the main reasons nobody challenges the Navy."

DEC 2018: Chinese warship closes within 40 odd meters of the USS
in the South China Sea. Decatur breaks off and leaves the

APR 2001: Chinese fighter collides with US EP-3 Aires (spy plane). Chinese
fighter crashes, pilot dies. US plane forced to land on Hainan island
(China). Crew held for ~ 10 days. China dissembled the US plane and sent it
back in July of that year.

MAR 2009: Five Chinese ships surround USNS Impeccable (research ship),
attempt to cut towed array, chase Impeccable out of the area. Note:
The Chinese ships included navy, law enforcement, and civilian.

DEC 2013: USS Cowpens forced into a crashback (violent sudden stop)
when a Chinese warship place itself in front Cowpens. We were
shadowing the Chinese carrier Laioning.

DEC 2014: Chinese fighter flies with 30 feet of US P-8 (recon). Does a
barrel roll around P-8.

MAY 2016: Two Chinese J-11's fly within 45 feet of US EP-3 Aires.

JUL 2016: Chinese diesel powered submarine surfaces within 5 miles of USS
Kitty Hawk
(carrier). Slipped right past the escorts.

DEC 2016: Chinese ship snag US underwater drone in international waters.

MAY 2017: Two Chinese Su-30's fly within 50 feeet US warplane.

There have been other incidents. The Russians have also been very
aggressive. I'll see if I can find some of the video footage.


China's "fledgling Navy" ...

Do not miss the bottom of the page with its examination of China's new

1 Submarines are often called 'boats'. The submariners can do
that, but it is improper to call a ship a boat (though some naval aviators
do ).

NOTE: I have no access to classified information. The only submarine
I've been on was a WWII sub at the museum at Patriots Point, SC. The above
information is all open-source. The analysis is mine. *g*


^ v
wolfguard says:
(Sat Aug 31 00:27:31 2019
Christopher Marlowe,

Not yet. One of my goddaughters lives in Alaska. She's visiting this coming
Christmas and want us to watch it together. If you have been watching it, then
don't spoil me. *g*


^ v
ChristopherMarlowe says:
(Fri Aug 30 23:43:40 2019
wolfgaurd Did you ever wind
up watching the latest season of
Veronica Mars?

^ v
ChristopherMarlowe says:
(Fri Aug 30 21:29:06 2019
I bit more respect to your working-class folks, they work!

^ v
wolfguard says:
(Fri Aug 30 18:25:11 2019
Edited: Fri Aug 30 18:27:50 2019
Agent Cooper,

Noted. Will reply tonight.


Your description of your process is what I believe most of us do. The
question for psychologists and social scientists of all persuasions is what
makes a perception or belief appear "sound". Note we may not even be sure of
the direction of the process...

Sensations actuate our senses. These senses and our brains fit and
manipulate the sensations into perceptions. It's these perceptions that we
'analyze'. Thinking, reasoning, creating, deciding are all being done on
perceptions, not the sensations themselves. Some processes creating
perceptions are more or less hardwired (we only see a certain spectrum of
the electromagnetic spectrum - and perhaps these are sensations and not
perceptions? Psychologists and anthropologists debate how colors are
perceived across cultures). But in time we develop perceptions and they will
influence how we develop future perceptions.

Humans are capable of producing more sounds than any one language uses.
Babies emit many, most, all of these sounds. Based on how those around them
respond to these sounds and the sounds those around them make, babies prune
their babble. As babies grow into toddlers and kids they become very good at
perceiving the sounds of the language(s) spoken around them, but eventually
will not be able to perceive the sounds outside their language. This is one
reason learning foreign languages is hard, especially for adults. We can't
hear - perceive - some of the sounds of the foreign language.

Similarly as we develop our worldview we feel comfortable believing it is
good and proper. If only those others were so blessed, the world would be a
better place. *g*


^ v
DaddyCatALSO says:
(Fri Aug 30 14:09:45 2019|
wolfguard white wings Agent Cooper [b/ I am aware of the limitations of my capacity to analyze issues, so I just choose the position which seems to me to sound out the ring of truth. while I've confidence in my own ability to dot his, I draw back form recommending it to others.

^ v
TheBirthdayGnomette says:
(Fri Aug 30 13:05:13 2019
Today Friday, August 30th 2019 C.E.

We have THREE (3) Birthdays!

Samuri Cat

Happy Birthday from the Bronze, to jenpro, Samuri Cat, Xanderphile

Yes. Lucky for you, people may be in danger. Buffy, 'Wild at Hea''

to be added to the birthday list, please email

^ v
ChristopherMarlowe says:
(Fri Aug 30 12:58:13 2019
Good morning beta!

^ v
Agent Cooper says:
(Fri Aug 30 12:55:07 2019
Wolfguard/White Wings: We had this discussion before recently, and back then I mentioned this. I read a story at some military analysis website that said that, even if you put aside the political ramifications of China directly invading and conquering Taiwan, which would be considerable, the Chinese would probably not be able to win that action VS the US.

The main reason given: Submarines. The US has a the most of them, and the most highly advanced ones in the world. And they are EVERYWHERE, in the oceans all over the world. And our enemies have a very hard time tracking them. So nobody knows where they are.

They aren't mentioned alot but the sub force the US Navy has is one of the main things our potential enemies fear when they strategize about an action against the US. It's one of the main reasons nobody challenges the Navy.

In the simulations the website ran, both sides suffered terrible casualties, but China got the worst of it by far and not in small part because their fledgling Navy would presumably be devastated by US Subs lurking in the South China Sea.

^ v
wolfguard says:
(Fri Aug 30 06:48:06 2019
White Wings,

Just read the Europe part of your post and realized I was mistaken, it's
about Taiwan. *g* I just checked a site that let's one compare the size of
countries and regions (you can even compare the size of the Moon to a
country). I tried several comparisons, here are four ...

Taiwan is 0.07 the size of France

Taiwan is 0.11 the size of the UK

Taiwan is 1/2 the size of Ireland

Taiwan is almost the same size as the Netherlands (0.96)

Nazi Germany conquered the Netherlands in five days.

Of course, the Nazis didn't have to cross 100 miles of water. And as you
noted submarines can exert great influence on surface forces. In the
Falklands War, HMS Conqueror sank the Argentine flagship
General Belgrano. Following the sinking, the Argentine surface fleet
returned to port (but not its air force or submarine (singular)). The
British expended most of their ASW ordnance trying to destroy the Argentine
sub - never got it. Additionally, Admiral Woodward kept his carriers far to
the east of the Falklands because he could not afford to lose either one.
This limited the effectiveness of his Harriers.

The British lost six ships, all to aircraft. Four of these ships were
directly supporting the amphibious landing. In the end, Britain won.

During the WII Guadalcanal campaign the US lost ~ 50 ships. Here's a map ...

Who won the campaign? The US. If China is willing to pay the full price, it
can take Taiwan. May not be much left afterwards, but as I noted last night
China believes Taiwan could be rebuilt in time and China has time.


^ v
wolfguard says:
(Fri Aug 30 06:15:31 2019
White Wings,

Possibly 1 of 2. I'm not certain if I can get to Europe and Russia tonight
(And I still haven't posted on trade policy!). In order of your thoughts on
the topics ...

1) Please send me a link or two on the sources of your information on the
IAEA's agreement(s) with Iran.

2) I've been following the KSA, Israel, and Iran for years and am not yet
ready to buy your argument that the Trump administration is responsible for
the Saudis and Israel's closer ties. In 1979 following Iran's revolution
there were many Sunnis across the Middle East that cheered them, because the
Iranians had both gotten rid of their autocrat and were talking down to the
West. Ayatollah Kohomeini was telling the Saudi people to take down their
rulers (the folks President Trump did the sword dance with).

There are always people who want to take an autocrat down. Autocrats use
different methods to defeat them. When the USSR invaded Afghanistan in 1979
young Muslims across the world headed there to fight the Infidel Soviets.
The Saudi leaders thought that would be a great place to send their hot-
heads (once being Osama bin Laden). Afghanistan in the 1980's was the young
Muslim man's Spanish Civil War.

The Afghans took help from where ever it came, but while both were Muslim an
Arab is not an Afghan. Different cultures. You Arabs look down on us.
Anyway, the war ended and some Middle Eastern countries made it difficult if
not impossible for their young men to return home. Do we really want these
young warriors home? Wait, we fight the good fight against the infidel and
you will not let us come home!? Bad feelings. Conflict brewing.

These were not the only young men who were not happy with the Saudi royal
family. Others believed the family was tainted, corrupted, hypocrites, etc.
But the country was founded on an alliance between the family and the
Wahhabi Islam. When subjects question the Saudi family's moral legitimacy
the family throws money and support at the Wahhabi institutions and in
response to events in Iran and Afghanistan the KSA began promoting Wahhabism
around the world.

Wahhabi Islam and Shia Islam do not see eye to eye.

I'm not organizing this well. *g* Anyway, the Middle East is a marble cake.
Certainly there have been young Saudi men who want to overthrow the Saudi
family and who take inspiration in what the Iranians did to the Shah, but
they are not Iranians and should they ever take power they will likely hold
similar positions with respect to Iran as does the KSA.

Back in the 80's I heard one man describe the pecking order in Saudi Arabia:

Sunni, Christian, Dog, Shi'ia

3) The Ottoman Empire ended with its defeat in WWI. Kemal Ataturk founded
modern Turkey and he designed it to be a secular state. He was successful,
but over the decades some Turks wanted a bit more respect from the state for
Islam beliefs. The Justice and Development party rode this power. Erdogan
rode it to power. In their early years in power they were relatively
moderate and Turkey was trumpeted as an example of a modern, democratic
Muslim country. This changed as Erdogan gathered more power and in the past
decade or so Islam has regained its place in the politics and government of


^ v
white wings says:
(Fri Aug 30 05:04:34 2019
I just looked at the proposed hurricane tracks. Now there's a chance that
Dorian will stravage over Florida and then make a sharp right and turn back over
southern Georgia.

^ v
white wings says:
(Fri Aug 30 04:27:51 2019
Happy Birthday Fantasma, Horizon, Lady Samantha, and singsinthecar!

Christopher Marlowe - It depends on when you posted that. *g*

wolfguard - I googled a bit more for "Iran side deals", and my memory was faulty. Supposedly Kerry didn't have secret agreements. Instead certain aspects of the deal were left to the IAEA to handle in secret agreements with Iran. Apparently Tom Cotton and Mike Pompeo were in Vienna talking to the IAEA, and when the subject of the Parchin military complex was brought up, the IAEA official said that was covered in an agreement between the IAEA and Iran, and the US couldn't see them. This information was on liberal as well as conservative websites, and not denied by the Administration.

Kerry claimed that he never saw them, and the IAEA said they would never be released to Congress or the public to see. The AP claimed to have gotten hold of one of them, and supposed substance of it was that Iran would inspect its own site and provide soil samples to the IAEA. I found multiple references to some other agreement to loosen the requirements to be met so that the economic restrictions could be lifted "in time".

I wasn't too far off in the intent and effect, I just had the mechanics wrong. The whole thing stank.

I suspect that one would find Trump much more likeable if one isn't negotiating with him.

Trump did a tremendous amount to further the ties between Saudi Arabia and Israel. You are right, from what they said, there had been backchannel communications for a long time, especially between security organizations. But the Sunni-Shia divide isn't one of the things that we can rely on to be absolutely predictable (at least to us). Witness Al Qaeda figures taking refuge in Iran. The fanatically religious in Saudi Arabia don't necessarily regard the Iranian fanatically religious as more evil than Israel. In public, it was impossible that the royal family be seen to talk to Israel. But all of a sudden, it became possible, and they could bring other countries along. It was after this quieting of tensions that the embassy was moved, and the Golan heights were recognized as Israeli territory. I'm sure that there were a lot more people behind the scenes, but Trump is the public figure, and he had to have authorized it all.

Turkey used to have a secular government.

Churchill drew considerable criticism for expressing his admiration of Rommel's competence as a general. *g*

There were a lot of bad times in taking back Europe. But first one had to get a foothold. Both the Europeans and the Russians wanted a second front to divide the German armies. China isn't likely to have any allies in an invasion of Taiwan (at this time). On the other hand, there's not as much to invade, and Taiwan is far from allies. On the third hand, submarines and air defenses can wreak a lot of havoc on an invading fleet, especially since there wouldn't be any secrecy. Unless they set out in a typhoon. I think that would mask them and prevent air and sea support. But there are problems. There are especially problems if you can't control or predict the actions of a leader on the opposite side.

Texas is very big, if you aren't an Alaskan. But no matter who you are, driving across Texas can be tiring and lengthy. Then again, it's faster than dogsleds. *g*

Your matrix sounds reasonable, unless you are a known and practiced procrastinator. Even if you are, actually. *sigh* But then there's the determination of importance. Nothing's perfect. ;-)

^ v
ChristopherMarlowe says:
(Fri Aug 30 03:53:43 2019
Well, I hope everyone has a good night!

^ v
ChristopherMarlowe says:
(Fri Aug 30 02:44:45 2019
anyone hereabouts tonight?

^ v
Trivia Girl says:
(Thu Aug 29 22:53:34 2019
Sunnydale's Trivial Pursuits

Category: Famous People
Question: Thomas Jefferson Snodgrass and Sergeant Fathom were early aliases for what famous American writer?
Answer: Clemens/Mark Twain

Trivia Master: notsoShyGirl!

^ v
wolfguard says:
(Thu Aug 29 18:41:04 2019
Edited: Thu Aug 29 18:56:46 2019
White Wings,

Most of us do not have the time or inclination to backtrack story sources.
1 Instead, we either compare the story to what we believe or
believe we know or accept a source out of habit or established trust.
2 What does the Iran deal treaty say? (really say?) My bet is few
of us have read the treaty and fewer have the background to interpret it in
context. So we go with our worldview and sources we trust. This is human
nature as is the tendency to decry others' differing viewpoints.

I intend to read all of Michel Houellebecq's article, because of the
apparent discrepancy in his opening, the title, and the contents. Prior to
President Trump's foray into politics my impression of him from interviews
was of a flamboyant, gregarious businessman who always said good things
about people. He still says good things about people - and atrocious things.
I've seen another side of his character. Is that all there is? Is he crazy
as a fox? I don't know. I have known other businessmen like him. I suspect
some dislike or discomfort of him comes from him not behaving in the mold
expected of contemporary presidents.

Trump3 did not create the developing ties between Saudi Arabia
(KSA) and Israel though he may be supporting it. The conservative gulf
states are Sunni and Arab. Iran is Shiia and Persian. Iran and the KSA have
been contesting for regional hegemony since at least the end of WWII. Israel
views Iran as an existential threat. What's happening between the two
countries reflect "the enemy or my enemy is my friend" calculations.

For years I've remembered the Taiwan straits as being ~100 miles wide, but
after reading your "140 miles" I also googled. One result showed 140 miles,
others did not, possibly because the width varies.

Most stories of D-Day focus on day 1. German Field Marshall Rommel, who have
been put in charge of defending against a channel invasion, has been quoted
as saying, ~For the Allies and Germany the first day will be the longest
day~ (This is source of the title for the book and the movie on the
invasion). Truth be told, behind the coast were bad times. Somewhere I have
the stats on men, equipment, defenses, etc the Germans had deployed. And
then there was the landscape of the 'bocage' which had not been properly
appreciated in planning.

In checking Rommel's quote, found this one ...

"Men are basically smart or dumb and lazy or ambitious. The dumb and
ambitious ones are dangerous and I get rid of them. The dumb and lazy ones I
give mundane duties. The smart ambitious ones I put on my staff. The smart
and lazy ones I make my commanders."


1 Does China really exist? Does sodium explode when exposed to
water? Does Florida really have a population of 19 million (or 21 million?)
Will I get in trouble with the IRS if I do not pay my taxes? Is Texas big?

2 Sometimes people will question when should they use this or
that analytical method in reasoning or problem solving, etc and I use this

How important is the issue to you?
How much time do you have to devote to it?

Very Important and Time: Do the effort
Very Important and No Time: What's available
Not Important and Time: Procrastinate
Not Important and No Time: There's a problem? (to be fair this could be an
instance of Rumsfield's "Unknown Unknown's"

3 For any president I will use the title when first mentioning
him in post and thereafter just the surname. The Economist's practice
is "Title Surname" on first use and thereafter Mr Trump or Mr Obama, etc.

4 Israel and Turkey use to have great relations, but with the
rise of Erdogan they have deteriorated.


^ v
notsoShyGirl says:
(Thu Aug 29 14:18:55 2019
Trivia Girl
Samuel Langhorne Clemens, aka Mark Twain

^ v
Trivia Girl says:
(Thu Aug 29 13:41:36 2019
Sunnydale's Trivial Pursuits

Category: Famous People
Question: Thomas Jefferson Snodgrass and Sergeant Fathom were early aliases for what famous American writer?

^ v
TheBirthdayGnomette says:
(Thu Aug 29 13:31:47 2019
Today Thursday, August 29th 2019 C.E.

We have FOUR (4) Birthdays!

Lady Samantha

Happy Birthday from the Bronze, to Fantasma, Horizon, Lady Samantha

Sir? I think you have a problem with your brain being missing. Zoe, 'The Train Job'''

to be added to the birthday list, please email

^ v
ChristopherMarlowe says:
(Thu Aug 29 12:33:58 2019
Good morning beta!

^ v
white wings says:
(Thu Aug 29 05:45:42 2019
Happy Birthday CJ, Faris, FIREHAWK, Kresnik, spikelover, Toni, Unadopted Angie, and Zorander!

wolfguard - I'm sticking my head above the weeds. I can't face the text of the Iran deal yet. The writeup there might not be complete. I distinctly remember at the time that certain parts of the deal weren't made public until after it was completed, like the part where Iran provides the samples and has a generous notice before an inspection. But of course I can't say that they aren't present in that text without reading it.

I can't deal with the writeup by Michel Houellebecq at the moment either. However, if he is ashamed of the "clown", I have to stand aside from that. There are parts of Trump Tweets that I find odd and confusing from a manager, though not a negotiator. But the image projected by most of the media isn't what I've seen on my TV or from some other media.

I do have an advantage over you. My brother knows a lawyer who negotiated face to face with Trump years ago. It wasn't a lawsuit, just some agreement being made of services and payments. The man was not, repeat not, fond of Trump when it was all over, but at no point did he describe Trump as a clown. He said that Trump is a brilliant negotiator, and he was pretty happy when Trump was running for president.

Naturally some of Trump's actions have to be judged in retrospect. When he moved the Embassy in Jerusalem, he was bold and courageous. If Armageddon had broken out, we would have called it something else. But his first trip abroad was to Arab countries and they bonded with a sword dance and other things, and Saudi Arabia is now speaking to Israel. He put those things in place first. It wasn't done without thought.

I'm not all that certain about Taiwan. At one time it was regarded as a well-armed fortress. They've been isolated, and I don't know how modern their armament is, and Mainland China has built up a lot. Whether the distances are 80 miles, 110 miles, or 140 miles (which I did of course get off the internet) it's still a long distance to cover by sea. They could of course have air landings, or missile bombardments, or naval bombardments. But the allies did that on D Day, and getting ashore was still a punishing experience. I don't know if the sea there is wilder than the English Channel, but I think it can be. The English Channel can have mighty gales, but it's not prone to typhoons. China also doesn't know about the degree of commitment from allies, and it knows it can't take any action in secret. At some point, it might not care. I don't know.

Taiwan is densely populated in places. There would be urban fighting, which is not pleasant. There are also some mountains. I been up one (as a 10 year old), but I don't remember how many or how steep or forbidding.

And now I must crawl off again, and rest before taking up a load of spreadsheetspoles.

^ v
wolfguard says:
(Thu Aug 29 02:56:06 2019
Edited: Thu Aug 29 02:56:45 2019
Christopher Marlowe,

Probably only a couple dozen countries recognize Taiwan as a sovereign
state. The United States does not recognize Taiwan as sovereign, but neither
does it recognize Taiwan as part of China.1

If and when China invades Taiwan most countries of the world might offer no
more than a verbal protest. There may be a few countries that might restrict
or cut ties of various sorts with China, but these will likely be countries
that are both out of the region and who do not have significant economic
ties with China.

Barring possibly the United States, Taiwan will stand alone against China.

1 The US does have extensive ties with Taiwan as do a few dozen
other countries.


^ v
ChristopherMarlowe says:
(Thu Aug 29 02:14:47 2019
wolfguard What would
worldwide reaction be to China
'invading' Taiwan?

^ v
Trivia Girl says:
(Thu Aug 29 00:04:35 2019
Sunnydale's Trivial Pursuit

Category: Angel
Question: Who first drank out of
the Cup of Perpetual Torment?
Answer: Spike

Trivia Cup of Perpetual Trivia
winner: notsoShyGirl!

^ v
wolfguard says:
(Wed Aug 28 18:39:07 2019
White Wings,

You appear to have a more sanguine perspective over Taiwan warding off a
mainland China (PRC) invasion than I. Twenty, twenty-five years ago I would
have tended towards the "million-man swim" camp. Today, I'm not so sure.

In the end, what China needs is for the Taiwanese leadership to step or bow
down and this might be accomplished without an amphibious and/or airborne
invasion. Perhaps a naval blockade would suffice. OTOH, that would require
time and with time perhaps some other country would step in. This has been a
working assumption or hope underlying Taiwan's defense for decades. China
would begin an amphibious invasion and the US would intercede. This might
work if the US would intercede and if it could intercede in time.

Facing this threat, China's aim would be to do it quick. Getting across the
straits fast 1, establish a beachhead, and move inland to control
the main cities, infrastructures, etc. One question is how will Taiwanese
citizens react? Some Taiwanese defense folks fear that facing the onslaught
citizens will be paralyzed and/or kow tow. Who knows? In such a future will
Taiwan have a Chamberlain or a Churchill - and would it matter?

Another possible approach for China is air and missile attacks. "Shock and
Awe" Taiwan into submission. Taiwan has little defense against a sustained
bombardment. Again the question is whether or not the US would step in and
whether or not doing so was effective.

I do wonder whether Xi and Chinese leaders consider the effects of such
attacks on Taiwanese attitudes and even their own citizens. China could win
political control, but of a destroyed country and people. OTOH, China prides
itself on playing the long game and in time Taiwan would recover and would
be part of China and the 70 year old anomaly erased from the history books.

Perhaps the rest of Asia would remember and prepare. Taiwan's fall may bring
a change of attitude as did Germany's invasion of Poland in 1939.


Taiwan is 1/4 the size of Florida, but has approximately the same
population, ~~ 20 million. This is where internet searches can be iffy. Last
night when I checked Taiwan's population and looked for comparable US states
the numbers I got were Taiwan ~ just under 24 million and Florida ~ 21
million. Looking back now, I wasn't sure which was 24 and which was 21 so
double checked by googling 'Florida population' and got ~19 million.

Essentially Taiwan has 4x the population density of Florida. (Another
comparison: Taiwan is around the same size of Maryland which has a
population of around 6 million)

1You noted the distance being 140 miles. This is the widest
point. The narrowest point is around 80 miles and the distance between the
mainland and the good landing zones are around 90 miles.


^ v
wolfguard says:
(Wed Aug 28 15:06:09 2019

I agree on the political point.

Agent Cooper & DaddyCatALSO,

My friend who told me about the article never watched BTVS, but he knew of
my interest. When he recounted Jane Espenson's comment my first response was
he'd need to know the context to really appreciate it - and then I paused
and rethought. The reason was much simpler. It was sex.

There's a lot of fanfic out there covering a lot of TV, movies, and books.
I've only read a little, but I've read studies on fanfic. According to the
such articles and studies there seem to be three major motivations for
writing fanfic ...

1 - The writer wants to explore story ideas not visited in the canon.

2 - The writer wants to be part of the story.

3 - The writer wants more sex in the mix, usually between characters the
canon will not touch.

Season 6 reflects #3. First, almost nothing in the previous canon created
any motivations leading Buffy and Spike to wanting to start a sexual
relationship. Second, I recall it being said Sarah was interested in a
storyline paring Buffy and Spike. Joss had planned Buffy's second death and
resurrection, but I don't know how far he'd gone in thinking about how Buffy
would handle resurrection. I do believe he'd planned for her to be plucked
from 'heaven' ...

Dear Marti,

We killed Buffy. I killed Buffy. It was neat. Pain, heartache, despair, Oh
My! We just can't restore her to life and carry on as if nothing happened.
It's cheap. And we're not cheap (network's cheap). So Pain for All! Sarah
groks Spike. Play with that.


(To be fair to Sarah, I don't think she wanted to go that far. Something
three episode arc. Maybe second base.)


^ v
DaddyCatALSO says:
(Wed Aug 28 14:07:10 2019
wolfguard Agent Cooper I'm not surprised that opinions in the writing room re S-6 shall w e say diverged. Trust Jane to phrase comment that way. If I could (I know it's not allowed) get her to read & comment on "Never Bet the Devil Someone Else's," I'd borrow a shotgun a nd shoot it off in a swamp to make that happen.

wolfguard Christopher Marlowe very few people can separate things The same behavior in their opponents is beyond the pale and in those with whom they agree an impressive & refreshing style chaange

^ v
notsoShyGirl says:
(Wed Aug 28 13:11:10 2019
Trivia Girl

^ v
Agent Cooper says:
(Wed Aug 28 12:58:16 2019
Wolfguard: RE Season 6- LOL!

This is funny, but on the other hand, it just shows they KNEW what they were doing was wrong...

^ v
Trivia Girl says:
(Wed Aug 28 12:35:39 2019
Sunnydale's Trivial Pursuit

Category: Angel
Question: Who first drank out of the Cup of Perpetual Torment?

^ v
TheBirthdayGnomette says:
(Wed Aug 28 12:27:53 2019
Today Wednesday, August 28th 2019 C.E.

We have NINE (9) Birthdays!

J August Richards as Charles Gunn
Unadopted Angie

Happy Birthday from the Bronze, to CJ, Faris, FIREHAWK, J August Richards, Kresnik, spikelover, Toni, Unadopted Angie, Zorander

Dawn: Any luck? Willow: If you define luck as the absence of success--plenty. 'Spiral''

to be added to the birthday list, please email

^ v
ChristopherMarlowe says:
(Wed Aug 28 12:20:51 2019
good morning beta!

^ v
white wings says:
(Wed Aug 28 04:48:10 2019
Happy Birthday Blade the Vampire Hunter, Freddy, HumVee, and Jules the Elder!

wolfguard - I'm alive, but focused on other tasks, in spite of your tempting posts. *g* Sometime soonish I'll be free.

Goes off whimpering.

^ v
wolfguard says:
(Wed Aug 28 03:37:31 2019
Christopher Marlowe,

President Trump and his administration provides a fascinating natural
experiment, actually more than one. He often behaves outside the norm of
what people have to expect from American presidents. For some, this is prove
enough that he's a bad man or a fool or incompetent. For others it shows
he's bold, thinks 'out-of-the-box', and won't be put down. The question to
me is what leads a person to favor one or the other description?

Some of his actions have also shown some conventional wisdom may have been
wrong. For example, if we move the US Embassy in Israel from Tel Aviv to
Jerusalem then Armageddon will break out.

And for some of his supporters, his end and means seem common sense - common
sense too long stifle by intellectual disdain. Another question to me, is if
this 'common-sense' fails or backfires, then how will his supporters react?
Will they consider that such 'common-sense' actually isn't or will they
blame the failure on others (liberal media, socialist this or that, etc.)?


^ v
ChristopherMarlowe says:
(Wed Aug 28 02:37:28 2019
wolfguard The most positive thing I can say about Trump is that he shakes things up!

^ v
wolfguard says:
(Wed Aug 28 00:50:24 2019
White Wings,

Just came across the following article written by Michel Houellebecq for

He begins saying he shares Americans' ~ shame for the appalling clown they
elected for president~, but then goes on to applaud most of Trump's actions
(though he believes some of Trump's choices follows Obama's choices.

I've only read about 1/2 to 2/3rds, but will finish it later. A mix of values
many Americans might believe incompatible (though I may change this assessment
once I finish all of it).


^ v
Trivia Girl says:
(Tue Aug 27 22:16:57 2019
Edited: Wed Aug 28 00:07:38 2019
Sunnydale's Trivial Pursuit

Category: Buffy
Question: Who created/hosted
Slayerfest 98?
Answer: Mr. Trick

trivia master: notsoShyGirl and Agent Cooper~

^ v
wolfguard says:
(Tue Aug 27 21:26:56 2019

Plus ca change

A friend was telling me about an article in WIRED on fanfiction. He
said it included the following on BTVS ...

A couple writers were approached by Joss Whedon about writing for a new
science fiction show. One or both of them mentioned, with trepidation, that
they had written Buffy fanfiction. Jane Espenson replied, ~ So did we. We
called it sixth season.~



^ v
DaddyCatALSO says:
(Tue Aug 27 20:38:29 2019
wolfguard Been too many d ecades since I read it, but I think I'm channeling 1st & 2nd Maccabees. When I use "Egypt" and "Syria" in post-Alexandrian context, I *mean* the Ptolemies and Seleucids. Since the Antigonids didn't last, I don't use Asia Minor the same way; Antipater's kingdom didn't last either. By the time of the MAccabees, Athens and Sparta were back on the map as independent nations, and abunch of Celts replaced the Greeks in Thrace for a while untila native kingdom rose up again

^ v
wolfguard says:
(Tue Aug 27 17:44:23 2019

Ah yes! The Seleucids! Whether or not Egypt was an empire depends on where one
puts their finger on the timeline. This is probably also true of "Syria",
maybe more so. Some think the name derives from Assyria which was an empire,
but I believe 'Syria" was also a province of Rome. The reality is this region
has seen many conquerors come and go. "Borders" is probably a less useful
description that "marches". Where does our writ end? Let's ride forth and see!

One historian or political scientist noted that a polity does not have to be
large to be an empire. What distinguishes an empire from other political
systems is its control over other groups. This definition may not satisfy
some, so very like academics debate it.


^ v
Agent Cooper says:
(Tue Aug 27 17:01:33 2019
Trivia Girl: Mr. Trick! I totally knew that one!

^ v
DaddyCatALSO says:
(Tue Aug 27 14:16:12 2019
wolfguard Christopher Marlowe Israel/Jordan was originally part of Ptolemy's share; the Seleucids conquered it. They basically got everything to t he East. The Seleucids made a virtue of necessity in the Indian provinces, turning them over to Chandragupta's empire and pronouncing him a fellow successor. The Greco-Bactrian kingdom up in the mountains they couldn't crack and once they got involved in wars to the West, the Parthians rode in and took Iran.
A relative of Antipater got Greece and Macedon, some minor figure got Thrace, a nd Antigonus got Asia Minor. He tried to become the new Alexander-Over-Everybody and a s result he never latse d long enough to establish a true dynasty, so Egypt and Syria became empires and Turkey a dn the Balkans became a crazy quilt

^ v
notsoShyGirl says:
(Tue Aug 27 14:06:31 2019
Trivia Girl
Mr. Trick

^ v
Trivia Girl says:
(Tue Aug 27 13:40:57 2019
Sunnydale's Trivial Pursuit

Category: Buffy
Question: Who created/hosted Slayerfest 98?

^ v
TheBirthdayGnomette says:
(Tue Aug 27 13:17:34 2019
Today Tuesday, August 27th 2019 C.E.

We have FOUR (4) Birthdays!

Blade the Vampire Hunter
Jules the Elder

Happy Birthday from the Bronze, to Blade the Vampire Hunter, Freddy, HumVee, Jules the Elder

Oh, God. Oh, God. My hair. My hair! The government gave me bad hair! Cordelia, 'Spin the Bottle'

to be added to the birthday list, please email

^ v
wolfguard says:
(Tue Aug 27 05:55:48 2019

White Wings,

I did not take your statements on the Iran deal at face value. *g* Mostly
because few people read such treaties, rather they cite someone else who may
and may not have read the treaty. Follows a link to what I believe is the
treaty text. It's long, so I've only zipped through it, stopping here and
there to read what might be relevant. Again, here's the text ...

Sections "N", "O", and "P" appear to address what's required of Iran with
respect to IAEA monitoring, etc.


^ v
white wings says:
(Tue Aug 27 05:10:42 2019
Peeking back in before crawling to bed.

wolfguard - Take your time, because I may be slow to respond to your response. Procrastination is a terrible, bad thing. It leads one to last minute marathons of things that aren't as fun as discussing the world order. I can only hope that my grammar was close to decent in my last post. I did re-read it but my eyes were getting blurry.

Christopher Marlowe - I wonder if trying to translate unknown languages is akin to decrypting codes? But decryption is helped if you know the language that was encrypted. Rosetta stones are so handy.

^ v
ChristopherMarlowe says:
(Tue Aug 27 03:56:28 2019
wolfguard Have a great

^ v
wolfguard says:
(Tue Aug 27 03:16:59 2019
White Wings,

I may not get enough time tonight to both ponder and reply to yours, but I
will reply before the Sun sets tomorrow. *g*

Christopher Marlowe,

My knowledge of linguistics is based on a few chapters from several
anthropology books, a couple popular books (one a history) and Lile's
Introduction to Linguistis. The last went into depth on structure and
the like, but it was back in the late 70's.

Many books on the brain and neuroscience will touch on language, but almost
nothing on translation. Before getting into ... got to run.


^ v
ChristopherMarlowe says:
(Tue Aug 27 02:55:28 2019
Edited: Tue Aug 27 02:57:02 2019
wolfguard Having something like the Rosetta stone is incredibly useful
for sure. The book I'm reading 'Lost Languages' discusses written text
(scripts) that have been deciphered, like Egyptian heiroglyphs and LInear B,
but also talks about scripts that haven't been solved yet, like Etruscan and
the Phaistos discs.

It appears to help if the the language you are trying to decipher is similar
to an existing language. The challenges appear to be be that sometimes the
script doesn't always directly relate to phonetics or spoken word and that
there isn't enough source material to have a reasonable chance at deciphering.

It's quite the science, which I hadn't realized before.

^ v
white wings says:
(Tue Aug 27 02:30:07 2019
Happy Birthday e-may aka Cabin7Baby, Prowler, RafterBitten1!

Haggard. Cocooned in papers and numbers, and it's my own fault. Taking a break.

Christopher Marlowe - "Amazon" is easier to say than "Brazilian rainforests".

wolfguard - See above. Attendance will be sporadic. *g*

There's nothing disrespectable about transferring sovereignty over a piece of land if the dwellers therein aren't unhappy about it, or if there are no dwellers therein. Sometimes even if they are unhappy. Look at Hong Kong, whose people were and are not happy about being transferred to Communist China with the flimsy promise of 50 years of sort-of autonomy. Considering the lease of Hong Kong was arranged with an empire that was overthrown, I think there would have been reason to have disregarded the document. Unless of course the communist government was threatening to take the land by force, and this was the best the British could do for them. I wasn't paying close attention. The story had taken root long before that the lease would be honored and that was that.

I think that any collateral damage with Europe is being caused by Trump's simply not doing what they want him to do. His manners really wouldn't matter that much. They have no problem with mouthing off rather offensively with us or with each other, so I'm not too worried about offense caused by Trump. If it's to their advantage, they'll get over it.

I'm not in a particularly knowledgeable position myself with regard to European energy sources, but I've probably heard the same things you have about the Russian pipeline. Trump has offered to substitute for the Russian oil or LNG. Who should receive the money for the energy? Putin has played blackmail games with the resources in the past.

Iran was being hurt before by the sanctions. The Iran deal bought time for Iran to invest in terrorism and ballistic missiles, and continue developing their nuclear resources. Any treaty that allows them to provide the samples on which they'll be judged, and requires a 20-30 day notification for inspections has no teeth at all. I loved that a lot of those provisions were kept secret until after it was all settled. People should have been howling. US credibility as a country with any brains or spine was almost irreparably damaged by going into it in the first place. Europe, as Europe often is, was just dying to get some oil and money out of the thing, and as long as the terror stayed mostly out of their country, they were content. Trump was absolutely correct (IMO, as always) to get out of that stupid monstrosity as soon as he could, and start crippling Iran economically as fast as he could. I think it's nice that Hamas is having trouble making payroll.

I know of no scientific method for judging attitudes. Too many variables. *g* We may have to agree to disagree. In any case, I'm not judging on personality so much as hoped for results.

Moving on to Taiwan, I think that China has hoped to draw Taiwan in by isolating them and through economics. I think they've been trying to control the US through economics. It's very effective, at least until someone decides to use the power of an even stronger economy to say "enough". While I doubt that the Chinese populace on the mainland are obsessed with Taiwan, the leaders are definitely obsessive if anything that might derail their project turns up. They were in a genuine snit about some Taiwan leader coming to the US, just as having the Dalai Lama show up at the White House causes frothing at the mouth. They'll still have to be careful about an actual invasion. That 140 miles to cross can have a lot of pitfalls. With modern science they should be able to avoid being destroyed by a typhoon. But with modern science they have to act in full view of everyone's satellites, missiles, carrier groups (if present), or submarines (which they might not know about). They also have to mass an armada in full view. Economics and threats are likely to be more successful over time.

As for "the socialist-directed press", yes, I do honestly believe it. Actually I'm more thinking of TV than the written word, but when I do read even local news it is not hard to find the same tendencies. I have no proof, but it's astonishing how some buzzword will appear as if by a Bat Signal and be passed around like a signal carried by watch fires. The anti-Trump propaganda is pretty manic. Did you catch the leaked NYT meeting notes, where they admitted they had geared their entire newsroom for two years towards the Russian collusion theory, and were now pivoting to Trump racism? Even a sober sounding article on the Corn Kernel poll takes the opportunity of being prejudicial. They refer to "former Vice President Biden", or "Mayor Budi..Budigege(?? you know who I mean)" or "NYC Mayor DeBlasio", but when they speak of the President, it's "Mr. Trump". As if they don't want to remind people that he has an official title. Of course, being anti-Trump is not in and of itself socialist. However, now that the Democratic presidential hopefuls are pretty much united in calling for government control of all healthcare and now for government control of energy production, government control of transportation (hence limiting mobility), government control of food production, government confiscation of firearms, and just about everything else in our lives, in the name of the climate, I lump them all together with the anti-Trump movement and call it socialist, if not communist. At least Bernie's pretty honest about it. I exclude individuals such as yourself who dislike Trump on his own merits, or the GOP for same. *g*

I do not know if there is an eminence grise behind the things I believe exist. There could be, and most of the front people might not even know about it. It could be Soros. It could be Steyer. It could be the ghost of Karl Marx. Or it could be that there's a movement that is progressing by a group momentum, born of the beliefs of prior generations who stayed hidden. I dunno, but the phenomenon is there. (IMO, of course)

Agent Cooper - WTWTA is fairly forgettable in terms of the arc. DC won't believe it, but with luck some later episodes will distract her with other things, like blood, violence, and death. *g* And there's always TYF, and the second return of Angel, if she is still faithful. ;-) Oh, I see wolfguard already covered that.

Back to the cocoon of papers and numbers. *whimper*

^ v
wolfguard says:
(Tue Aug 27 02:18:16 2019
Edited: Tue Aug 27 02:19:44 2019
Christopher Marlowe,

I do not know much about deciphering ancient languages. The value of the
Rosetta Stone was two known forms of Egyptian were paired with Greek.
1 All three were conveying the same 'decree' so if you knew
Greek, then it could provide a guide to figuring out the Egyptian. If I were
to try to understand this ability I would start with reading how people
deciphered the Mayan glyphs.

I've heard and seen headlines on the Amazonian fires. Macron decrying them
as a threat to the world. Bolsonaro becoming angry, but perhaps now seeking
outside help? The Amazon basin is huge and it's possible people can debate
which parts of it are "Amazon" proper and not. That said, the Amazon rain
forests are very significant producers of oxygen. We may not know how
significant until we destroy most of it.

1 After Alexander the Great died his ~empire~ got divided between
three of his generals. One got Greece proper, one got what is today
~Lebanon/Syria/Iraq/Israel/Iran (?), and Ptolemy got Egypt (I'm not sure who
got what's now Turkey). The Ptolemy dynasty ruled Egypt for around three
centuries. Cleopatra was the last Ptolemaic ruler. She allied with the wrong
guy, Mark Anthony, and when he was defeated by Octavius she committed
suicide. Octavius went on to become Augustus Caesar, the first Emperor of


^ v
ChristopherMarlowe says:
(Tue Aug 27 01:01:11 2019
wolfguard Over the past
few days, I've been seeing in the
news and facebook over the fires
in the Amazon and everyone in an

Then I get to a story that the
Amazon isn't burning any more
than in prior years and the
Amazon itself apparently isn't on
fire, but forests in Brazil are.

^ v
ChristopherMarlowe says:
(Tue Aug 27 00:16:15 2019
wolfguard I picked up a book on undeciphered ancient languages and I never knew how difficult or complicated it is to find out the written language actually means.

^ v
Trivia Girl says:
(Mon Aug 26 22:56:51 2019
Sunndale's Trivial Pursuit

Category: Phobias!
Question: What do you fear if you
have Pteridophobia?
Answer: Ferns

Trivia Fearless: notsoShyGirl!

^ v
DaddyCatALSO says:
(Mon Aug 26 19:14:08 2019
Agent Cooper My "Kit-kat" was 9 during that part of S-4 & as she was hosting me in her playroom *g, I never objected to anything; she gave up on the show after "Yoko Factor." I got her to w atch BvD but that was it until we lost the house and I moved in with mys ister.

^ v
wolfguard says:
(Mon Aug 26 19:06:08 2019
Agent Cooper,

One approach is looking at what in the episode bridges an arc or the season
story between New Moon Rising / Superstar which both came
before and The Yoko Factor which follows. Three things come to my
memory ...

1) I believe Anya was questioning Xander's commitment to her and his and her
actions in Where the Wild Things Are reassured her.

2) Somewhere in these episodes Adam makes his offer to Spike - help me and I
will remove the chip. Spike accepts and since he implements his plan in
The Yoko Factor, then their meeting took place before.

3) Angel visits town in The Yoko Factor. He and Riley fight in the
alley and later confront each other in Buffy's dorm room. Riley is jealous,
protective, and insecure about Buffy's ex. She ask him - given our
frolicking in Where the Wild Things Are - why should you be?
Actually, she ask ~ where have I given you any reason to be?

When you watch The Yoko Factor what questions might she ask whose
answers, if any, come from Where the Wild Things Are?


^ v
Agent Cooper says:
(Mon Aug 26 18:06:11 2019
Over the past few days I've watched more of season 4 with Daughter Cooper. We just finished "New Moon Rising" last night.

We skipped over "Where the Wild Things Are.", over loud protests from DC. So yes, finally, we're getting deep enough into the series where I think some of the content may be too mature for her. I figured this was going to happen.

Although DC is now old enough to grasp most of the adult concepts in BTVS so far, (even if she doesn't fully understand them yet per se) I decided that WTWTA is a bit much.

The main story arc of the ep is focused on a sexually charged haunting, and explores the concept of sexual energy and desire (in this case) as a negative spiritual force. It also touches on the topic of sexual abuse in a (more, if that's possible) frightening supernatual angle.

I think it's just too much for her to handle right now.

I've been playing with the idea of letting her watch some scenes fromthe ep for the sake of continuity, but still haven't decided.

^ v
wolfguard says:
(Mon Aug 26 16:32:17 2019
Trivia Girl,




^ v
notsoShyGirl says:
(Mon Aug 26 15:27:07 2019
Trivia Girl

^ v
DaddyCatALSO says:
(Mon Aug 26 14:10:44 2019
Christopher Marlowe Thanks. I even went on Twitter and shared the good news with Sarah, Julie, Eliza, and Amber (not Charisma:-() that I will finally watch certain things they were in and understand them.

^ v
TheBirthdayGnomette says:
(Mon Aug 26 13:47:52 2019
Today Monday, August 26th 2019 C.E.

We have THREE (3) Birthdays!

e-may aka Cabin7Baby

Happy Birthday from the Bronze, to e-may aka Cabin7Baby, Prowler, RafterBitten1 ]/center]

Well, look at you. All dressed up in big sister's clothes. Faith, 'Graduation Day (1)'''

to be added to the birthday list, please email

^ v
Trivia Girl says:
(Mon Aug 26 13:41:21 2019
Sunndale's Trivial Pursuit

Category: Phobias!
Question: What do you fear if you have Pteridophobia?

^ v
wolfguard says:
(Mon Aug 26 05:24:55 2019
White Wings,

Back in early 1996 China became angry some Taiwanese politicians' push for
more independence from China.1 Aiming to send a message, China
moved additional military forces to the coast and fired missiles towards
Taiwan (aimed to fall in the ocean). The Clinton administration sent two
carrier battle groups steaming through the straits. China backed off.

China also learned some lessons. One was China needed a large, modern navy
and began building one. Today they have large, modern navy. In 1996 some in
the Department of Defense summarized China's ability to cross the straits to
invade Taiwan as the 'million man swim'. Today and tomorrow they won't be

Personally, I've believed since 1996 that China would seek to snare Taiwan
through trade and investment. Today 40% of Taiwan's exports are to China and
Hong Kong (Exports account for 70% of Taiwan's GDP). I also believe China
will use the carrots and sticks of economic policy to woo Taiwan's allies
away. China will not seek to strangle Taiwan's economy so much as channel it
to China.

The above policy takes time to work. Will there be such time? Who knows.
I've a friend who has worked in both Taiwan and China. Taiwan is obsessed
with the question of its independence from China. Mainland Chinese are not
obsessed, not in the sense that the fret about it all the time. They have
too many other things on their mind. But, ask any mainland Chinese if Taiwan
is part of China and the immediate answer is, "Of course." I imagine
circumstances could evolve where China might see a brief opportunity to
snatch Taiwan and might go for it. Could happen.

I missed replying to this phrase in your last post ...

... only what the socialist-directed press simplified it into..."

When I read such I accept the writer believes it true. I also accept that
when a writer speaks about the capitalist-controlled press that they also
believe it. I've read authors who dedicated the time and resources to write
books arguing both sides. Here again we have passions running deep and

Do you believe the "socialists" directing the press are the owners or the
editors or someone else? Examples of names and articles?

1 As you recall after the Chinese Civil War ended in 1949 the
Kuomintang fled to Taiwan. There it set up the Republic of China still
claiming to be the legitimate government of mainland China. Once day we
shall return! And because they hoped this true, the KMT never declared that
Taiwan was separate country. Many of the local folks, true Taiwanese, may
have thought otherwise, but they did not run the government. As Taiwan
evolved into a democracy parties arose seeking independence. However, China
has always claimed that any official declaration of independence would be
grounds for war. (I believe some mainland Chinese see the situation as akin
to the southern states of the US seceding from the USA in 1861.)


^ v
wolfguard says:
(Mon Aug 26 04:54:45 2019
White Wings,

This was to be on Taiwan, but so many thoughts on your last post. I'll tag
an abbreviated reply on Taiwan/PRC at the end.

Just touching on some of your comments. I'll do it in order you presented.

1) Greenland/Buying and selling parts of countries.

Noting some countries use force to take other countries' territories is not
the equivalent to a countries trading sovereign territories with each other.
Both actions are viewed as wrong, at least in the Western world. For a few
centuries some African societies raided other African societies to capture
people to be sold to Europeans as slaves. Today we view acquiring slaves, in
whatever fashion, as immoral. Wrong. Countries have the right to sell land
within their borders as they see fit, but no respectable country sells away
their sovereignty over such land deals much less sovereignty over the
citizens living on such land. President Trump demonstrated ignorance.
Calling it 'thinking outside the box' demeans "thinking outside the box".
Trump should owe up to it and move on.

2) I have no argument with Trump's efforts to get some NATO members to pay
up on the pledges. Most every American president has faced this problem. The
question is whether any successes are worth the collateral damage created by
Trump's style. We can debate it at length.

3) Many European countries depend on Russian oil and it certainly makes them
vulnerable. As with NATO finances, this has been a concern of other American
presidents. We can discuss it at length (I cannot debate, because I know
enough about the issue to know I need more to have a position on it).

4) The Iran deal had bought some time and having more time can allow
opportunities to arise. US sanctions on Iran has severely hurt Iran's
economy, but has it elicited the behavior from Iran that the Trump
administration claims its seeking? Some believe the real reason for ending
the deal and increasing sanctions is a belief the resulting hardships will
cause the Islamic Republic of Iran to dissolve into a different regime more
friendly to the US and the West. I think it's not likely to happen. I also
do not like the US' credibility being tarnished.

5) Whether or not one sees Trump as a party clown or a rodeo clown probably
depends on whether one likes him or not. Our personal bias make it hard for
us to do otherwise. A scientist would look for a way to test the
proposition. Do any ways come to mind?

Taiwan next post. I will have to leave trade policy for another night.


^ v
wolfguard says:
(Mon Aug 26 04:15:47 2019
White Wings,

Composing now. *g*


^ v
ChristopherMarlowe says:
(Sun Aug 25 23:32:47 2019
DaddyCatALSO Congrats on the
upcoming new aids!

^ v
wolfguard says:
(Sun Aug 25 22:34:52 2019
Edited: Sun Aug 25 22:40:14 2019
White Wings,

Noted. Will ponder and reply later tonight. *g* A lot of young people think
of the Vietnam War the way some of us thought of WW1 (if you were a child of
the 50's or 60's, 1917 - the year the US entered the war - was 40+ years
earlier. Hell, Vietnam was even longer ago, 2019-1965=54.1 Hmmm.
A twenty something in 1960 looking back 54 years would hit 1906. What was
special about 1906?

Another perspective. I was speaking with a 27-year old who holds a master's
degree (not history). To him, the first Gulf War (1990-1991) doesn't even
register. When his generation thinks about war, American wars, it's about
Gulf II and Afghanistan (his own words). The others, while important, are

1 1960-1917 = 43. While the US was fighting in Vietnam earlier,
1965 was the year the Marines 'crossed the beach' at Da Nang.

ETA And if there be a big war with China, say next decade, it will be fought
by men and women who will likely have been born between 1975-2001.


^ v
white wings says:
(Sun Aug 25 21:38:08 2019
Happy Birthday Angle Man, Divyne, klskin, macpro75, Marti Noxon, Molly, Polgara, Slayergirl99uk, and Watcher's Pet!

Oh, wolfguard! You and I have both been on this earth but a moment. You're the one who likes to study history in all its details. Are you really going to say that the world as we know it is the best it could ever be, and that no change could ever be possible for any good?

I don't see Trump as riding the bull. I see us as riding the bull rather precariously, and I remember a song from an old beginning guitar book:
"Up there I turned over/below I could see
He was pawing the ground/he was waitin' for me.
I pictured a grave/and a cross made of wood
Saying 'Here lies a cowboy who thought he was good.'"

To me, Trump is the rodeo clown that everyone laughs at, but in reality has the most dangerous job requiring the most skill and courage in the whole show, that of distracting a maddened bull while the rider gets out alive. He might succeed. He might be gored. But he's trying.

You say that countries "do not" divest themselves of territory. What makes that so? Countries are being taken by force all the time, every day in every way, and we call that the way of the world and don't get upset? Just because no peaceful territorial transfers have occurred recently, does that mean they are to be scorned as impossible in our oh-so-perfect world? But to be more direct, Trump is thinking outside the box. We don't know his exact approach to Denmark through intermediaries, only what the socialist-directed press simplified it into. We do know the response. He wants something, he asks, he's told no, and he doesn't seize it by force. Just how much more civilized does he have to be? We see Putin and Xi, and the Middle East, and lots of Africa, yet we mock an inquiry? I don't think we should, even though I also don't see that as a likely transaction.

Trump is the one asking why it's OK that other countries whose economies aren't particularly bad set high tariffs/duties/outright blocks on our goods, yet we freely take theirs. We have countries essentially flinging themselves on the ground kicking and screaming that it's not right for us to do anything different from what they want us to do, but since they do it in different accents, we take them seriously. Trump is the one saying that we aren't their shmoos. I'm sure you recall the reference?

We have countries expecting us to spend our money shielding them from the likes of Putin, while they are paying Putin for resources and giving him money to proceed to endanger them. Then when Trump points out the absurdity of it, they holler about his not following in the spirit of NATO, and how rude and clownish it is of him to criticize their learned actions? Same with Iran, I might add.

Trump is indicating that he's a wild card, that he won't be controlled by other countries for their benefit to the detriment of ours, that they don't know quite what he'll come up with, but if they are too nasty about it, he's not afraid to walk out. It's a negotiation tactic, and he's in negotiations. I see that Macron invited an Iranian minister to the G7, at least for side negotiations. The news says that Trump said "No comment". I wonder what he's planning? *g*

As for your footnote, that's such an appalling thought, that the young'uns know neither "postwar" nor "Great War". Yet it's true. Excuse me, I need to go find a cane, or maybe that rather neat folding walker that I keep in a closet for emergencies ...

^ v
wolfguard says:
(Sun Aug 25 21:19:31 2019
"Alexei Ananenko, Valeri Bezpalov, and Boris Baranov"


^ v
wolfguard says:
(Sun Aug 25 17:31:05 2019
White Wings,

In the approach to the official founding of Israel in 1947, various Arab
countries had told Palestinians to take a brief leave from Palestine and
that after the Jews were kicked out, they could return. It would only be a
few months. Now several generations of Palestinians have lived in refuge
camps or overseas. I had heard some folks in Arab states who refer to
Palestinians as Arab Jews, because those who left the refuge camps were
often the most educated and entrepreneurial. Who are these upstarts coming
to my country and taking my jobs?! OTOH, most of the Palestinians are
Muslim, so we get the, "I can fight with my brother, but you better not mess
with him!", which leads to most Arabs supporting the Palestinians.

I'll return to the Taiwan situation tonight.

DaddyCatALSO & White Wings,

I've not yet heard or read what President Trump actually said or the context
in which it was said. I skimmed an article that I remembered as reporting
Trump saw Greenland as important to the US, because of the rare earths and
its strategic location (The loss of large amounts of sea ice has opened up
potential economic, commercial, and political opportunities).

Again, at least since the decolonization that followed WWII1
countries do not divest themselves of parts of their country to anyone -
corporations, non-profits, other states, etc. I've chosen 'divest' over
'sell', because it may better explain why so many countries were astonished
by Trump's offer to 'buy' Greenland ('buy' being the other side of the

A country may allow parts of its territory to be bought and sold, but the
country will not sell its sovereignty over that territory. A company might
buy mining rights or territory in another country, but the company will
behave in accordance with the rules of the game as laid out by the
government of the given country. In this light, Trump or an American company
might offer to buy the mining rights, etc. for rare earths. If Trump
believed the US needed to position military or intelligence assets in
Greenland, then he would direct his administration to pursue negotiations
for the same with the Danes.

But, just offering to buy Greenland outright is beyond tone-deaf (for those
who frown at "the pale" *g*). It's self-defeating. It plays into inclination
of some many people, groups, and countries who have concluded President
Trump is a clown riding a bull in a China shop.

1 It just occurred to me that there may be younger people who do
not recognize "WWII" or WW2 as abbreviations for "World War 2". In the past
ten years I learned some people do not perceive "Postwar" as meaning the era
that followed the end of World War 2 (and that happened here on the board
when another poster accused me of disassembling when I explained an argument
where I used "postwar". How many among us remember "The Great War" was once
the name for WWI ("World War 1)?


^ v
TheBirthdayGnomette says:
(Sun Aug 25 16:03:52 2019
Today Sunday, August 25th 2019 C.E.

We have NINE (94) Birthdays!

Angle Man
Marti Noxon
Watcher's Pet

Happy Birthday from the Bronze, to Angle Man, Divyne, klskin, macpro75, Marti Noxon, Molly, Polgara, Slayergirl99uk, Watcher's Pet

Wash: Little River just gets more colorful by the moment. What'll she do next? Zoe: Either blow us all up or rub soup in our hair. It's a toss-up. Wash: I hope she does the soup thing. It's always a hoot, and we don't all die from it. 'Objects In Space'

to be added to the birthday list, please email

^ v
ChristopherMarlowe says:
(Sun Aug 25 04:37:21 2019
some late-night humor, courtesy of the recent Fringe festival.

"Someone stole my antidepressants. Whoever they are, I hope they're happy" - Richard Stott

"What's driving Brexit? From here it looks like it's probably the Duke of Edinburgh" - Milton Jones

"A cowboy asked me if I could help him round up 18 cows. I said, 'Yes, of course. - That's 20 cows'" - Jake Lambert

"A thesaurus is great. There's no other word for it" - Ross Smith

"Sleep is my favourite thing in the world. It's the reason I get up in the morning" - Ross Smith

"I accidentally booked myself onto an escapology course; I'm really struggling to get out of it" - Adele Cliff

"After learning six hours of basic semaphore, I was flagging - Richard Pulsford

"To be or not to be a horse rider, that is Equestrian" - Mark Simmons

"I've got an Eton-themed advent calendar, where all the doors are opened for me by my dad's contacts" - Ivo Graham

^ v
white wings says:
(Sun Aug 25 03:20:26 2019
Happy Birthday Aussie Katrina, Cellen, Dreamscape205, Joxy, Kaymyth, Miss Pointy, poptart13, and wicca!

Christopher Marlowe - Your afternoon does sound really nice. I wasn't so lucky. *g* I tried to install a new digital door lock and the blasted thing didn't work. I've done it before, and I tried a lot, with my nose buried in the instructions. This time was no go. So I went off in a snit for a replacement (having ascertained that Lowes had the same thing for $23 less than HD), and put it in, and got it reprogrammed and rekeyed. It was overcast today, which was nice, and I was even sprinkled on briefly, but that was all. There were 3" of rain to the west and 2" to east, and nothing measurable for me. *sniff* But it was cooler. I guess all's well that ends well.

^ v
ChristopherMarlowe says:
(Sun Aug 25 01:00:25 2019
white wings It was a rather lovely afternoon. I was invited to a backyard bbq, and it was a beautiful day for. A bit of a drive, but totally worth it.

^ v
white wings says:
(Sat Aug 24 18:02:11 2019
Good afternoon, Beta!

^ v
TheBirthdayGnomette says:
(Sat Aug 24 17:30:53 2019
Today Saturday, August 24th 2019 C.E.

We have EIGHT (8) Birthdays!

Aussie Katrina
Miss Pointy

Happy Birthday from the Bronze, to Aussie Katrina, Cellen, Dreamscape205, Joxy, Kaymyth, Miss Pointy, poptart13, wicca

Dawn: I feel safe with you. Spike: Take that back! 'Crush'

to be added to the birthday list, please email

^ v
ChristopherMarlowe says:
(Sat Aug 24 16:03:10 2019
Good morning beta!

^ v
DaddyCatALSO says:
(Sat Aug 24 14:50:42 2019
Edited: Sat Aug 24 15:01:55 2019
Well, turns out my hearing loss is
"only" between 35 & 50. When Ig et
hearing aids aghain ina few weeks,
after 15 years without, I'll
finally be able toi amke some sense
out of my DVDs of *Chance, No
Ordinary Family,* & *Veronika
Decides To die*

wolfguard white wings If whoever wrote that speech had had any sense
at all, it would have just been an offer of statehood or commonwealth status
to Greenland.

My wish would fix the South China Sea, too. For one there would be one
Taiwan with everyone already there who flat wants to be part of the PRC
moved a bit closer to the mainland. And another Taiwan, plus Matsu and
Quemoy, moved further out and over three times as large. Wonder if they
would want to join ASEAN or work out a threeway pact with Japan and East
Korea. (Keep in mind, on New Earth Eastasia and North America are about
thrice as far apart as now.)

As for the islands and the economically valuable sea floor around them, a
simple solution. Indonesia, Malaysia, Brunei, Vietnam, Philippines, PRC,
Taiwan, West Korea, the Empire of Manchukuo, East Korea, Japan, the Grand
Duchy of Yedolaya, Russia, and the Empire of Ilyeska over on New Beringia,
would all have their own version of each island they claim and plenty of
room between them.

^ v
white wings says:
(Sat Aug 24 06:28:20 2019
wolfguard - I really hadn't remembered that you had mentioned Alaska and Louisiana. I did know about them on my own, but I suspect my subconscious remembered what you had said. They are perfectly good examples. Well, give or take the indigenous peoples. Trump's proposal was not at all beyond the pale if the Greenlanders didn't object. He probably thought they could find mutually agreeable terms where everyone would get something. They said no. So unless they change their minds, that's probably where it stays. He may see if they can come to some terms about rare earths, although I'm guessing that everyone will recoil in horror at the idea of yucky mining. Or he may just leave it alone. If he sent in troops for a Crimea-style takeover, that would be beyond the pale.

The one state idea would have required the Palestinians to submit to Israeli politicians, at least until and unless they could take over. They wouldn't. The two state solution still requires that the Palestinians stop trying to kill the Israelis. They won't, and at this point it will take one or two generations if they stopped indoctrinating children immediately, before there could be a concept of peace. The busing idea ran into the small problem that the other Arab states didn't want the Palestinians.

It's possible that the Communist Chinese are holding back in Hong Kong to put a better face on things for Taiwan. I certainly don't think it's any consideration about having agreed to leave HK fairly autonomous for 50 years. They may just be planning how to suppress the population most efficiently. It's not like Tianamen Square. It's densely populated high rises. Part of it is an island. And the world has a lot of eyes and ears in there. Taiwan is a tougher nut to crack. It's an island farther away than England is from France, and the Reds don't know what allies Taiwan actually has. They've made everyone back off from recognizing Taiwan, and even Taiwan doesn't seem to want to confront anyone, but if we are speaking of an overseas invasion force, there might be some nasty surprises. Or not. It's a gamble, and they know how to wait until they feel they have the greatest advantage.

Your analysis of the South China Sea situation sounds spot on to me. I still want someone else (or us) to build competing islands, but it's not going to happen. Hoping for a good typhoon isn't apt to be a winning strategy either.

erp, I should probably hit the hay.

^ v
wolfguard says:
(Sat Aug 24 05:50:21 2019
White Wings and Christopher Marlowe,

For the past few decades the countries bordering the South China Sea have
argued over possession of this or that island, islet, reef, rock, etc.
because possession of the land gives a country legitimate claims on the
resources in the sea and seabed around the land. International courts have
ruled against some of China's claims and actions, but China have ignored or
dismissed the rulings.

Beyond the resources, controlling the South China Sea protects China's
ocean-going trade across the Indian Ocean to the Middle East, Africa, and
Europe. China is not going to let laws written and interpreted by Western
countries interfere with its survival, independence, or well-being. China
sees itself as returning to the high position it once held in the world and
the world can adapt to China and China's vision.

One question is whether the countries of the world will let China pick and
choose which elements of international law it will respect. Another question
is whether China's actions will create a backlash where its neighbors decide
they need band together against China or risk falling separately to China.
One can see both possibilities even now.

As a military matter, China's island bases would probably not last in an
all-out war. They islands are not that big and the US has the missiles that
could destroy the bases. That said, China is wagering the US has no interest
in such an all-out war over an island here, an island there. Consequently
China continues its "salami tactics".


^ v
wolfguard says:
(Sat Aug 24 05:22:43 2019
White Wings,

A couple days ago I noted the Louisiana Purchase and the purchase of Alaska.
As you noted, both the buyers and sellers did not consider the indigenous
peoples' opinions worthy of consideration. Such thinking is no longer
accepted as legitimate, at least in the world order the US created and
sustained following the end of WWII.1 President Trump's offer
struck many as beyond the pale, because the idea has been beyond the pale
for decades.

The "Two State Solution" reflected Israel's dilemma between being a
democracy and being a Jewish state caused by Palestinians having a greater
birth rate than Israeli Jews. Israel was founded by Jews as a home for Jews
in a world that too often killed Jews. Israel also saw itself as a
democracy, one person - one vote. Maintaining both required Israeli Jews
being the largest group in the country; however, the differing birth rates
between Jews and Palestinians meant that in the future there would be more
Palestinians and if they voted as a bloc then they could vote away those
aspects of Israel that make Israel a Jewish homeland.

Some Israeli Jews thought a good way to solve this problem would be to put
all the Palestinians in buses and drop them off across the border in Jordan
and/or Lebanon and/or Egypt. More pragmatic Israeli Jews thought some sort
of two-state solution was the answer.

RE: Hong Kong

I suspect China may be holding back the military, because it would stiffen
Taiwan's resolve to stay free of mainland China. Moreover, China may believe
it can eventually arrest those it wants to arrest and punish others through
restricting their access to the good things in life. You misbehaved, not job
for you, etc.

South China Sea next post

1 Certainly there are some countries that honor these beliefs
only as convenient, but they put on the trappings because it benefits them
to do so in the eyes of the world.


^ v
wolfguard says:
(Sat Aug 24 03:08:01 2019

White Wings & Christopher Marlowe,

Noted. Will reply later tonight.


^ v
white wings says:
(Sat Aug 24 02:27:14 2019
Christopher Marlowe - The South China sea could be a very sticky wicket. I want to do the passive-aggressive thing and build our own islands there, but the cost, distance, and logistics are somewhat difficult. OK, it wouldn't be sensible. *g*

Failing that, I'm hoping that their engineering wasn't good enough to stand up to a good super typhoon, or a tsunami, but one cannot call those up to order.

Someone else will have to find another solution.

In other news, it was 86 degrees at 8pm! I know it won't last, but it was startling.

^ v
ChristopherMarlowe says:
(Sat Aug 24 00:57:56 2019
wolfguard, white wings WE might have to add the South China (Asian) seas? I know that has been hotly contested area.

^ v
ChristopherMarlowe says:
(Fri Aug 23 23:42:55 2019
Good evening beta!

^ v
white wings says:
(Fri Aug 23 19:38:28 2019
Happy Birthday Dharkm, justLURKin, Keylime, and Sonja Marie!

wolfguard - In the last couple of centuries the US purchased the Louisiana Territory and Alaska. Neither was heavily populated by Europeans, and Alaska was barely populated at all. The Louisiana Territory had quite a few unhappy indigenous locals though they were sparse by modern standards. I think their unhappiness was about any of the European incursions, and not at all about the buyout. I guess you could say that was both a purchase and a war. Greenland, you might note, is a vast amount of land occupied by under 60K people.

There's something like that happening locally on a smaller scale. The land on which a batch of student housing apartments stands is going to be sold and razed for a development of stores and more upscale housing. This is coming at a time when everyone is moaning about the lack of affordable housing. Yes, the city obviously really cares about affordable housing, in the same way that they cared about fire codes years ago when they allowed land to be developed on hills too steep for fire trucks. Anyway, the people living there are showing up in force, very vocal, and with signs at city council meetings. The city council just goes ahead and reads whatever it is they are officially reading and approves it. Identity, nation states? What size do they have to be to make a difference? Oh, these people are just renters, and everything is going according to law? One of the miffed Greenlanders said "Here, the land is owned by the government, but we get to use it." So who is to say the government couldn't sell the land and sell the people down the river? Only some relatively newfangled ideas. Well, that and the emotional ties between them and Denmark, unless it is the Greenland government that owns the land, which is a different matter.

To head into true realms of fantasy, rather than trying a two-state solution between Israel and Palestine first off, why not try that with Greenland to see if it could function with two countries that aren't out to rub each other out? I have an uneasy feeling that the Greenlanders might discover their Viking heritage. *g*

It's all idle speculation more fit for fiction, anyway. ;-)

Sigh. I'm looking at the news now. Hong Kong. The British honored a 99 year lease signed with a long-dead monarchy, and abandoned an entire city-state to its fate, trusting in some agreements with Red China. I fear the city-state is about to learn about power. They could do it the hard way or the easy way. Well, actually, there's only the hard way. The question is how much blood is spilled. I have fond memories of Hong Kong. 60 year old memories, though, and things have changed.

At least the Greenland thing is being put to bed with a few quiet inquiries, some tweets, some news stories, and a cancelled trip. Very little harm.

^ v
DaddyCatALSO says:
(Fri Aug 23 14:11:43 2019
wolfguard white wings Another thing I'd settle by the move to New Earth, although this wouldn't help our current "ROTUS." The Federal States of Paramerica, where I'd be living after the transition, would have its own admittedly smaller Greenland settled by folks from various alternate histories where it *did* become US territory at some point in the past.

^ v
TheBirthdayGnomette says:
(Fri Aug 23 13:35:00 2019
Today Friday, August 23rd 2019 C.E.

We have FOUR (4) Birthdays!

Sonja Marie

Happy Birthday from the Bronze, to Dhark, justLURKin, Keylime, Sonja Marie

Mal: You were dead! Tracy: Hunh? Oh. Right. Suppose I was. Hey there, Zoe. 'The Message'

to be added to the birthday list, please email

^ v
wolfguard says:
(Fri Aug 23 09:12:52 2019
White Wings,

Here again is my statement ...

"...For now most of the world has moved past buying and selling sovereign
control over territory. If a country wants a piece of another country
acquiring it will involve a war..."

I'm going to divide it into two parts and switch some words:

"For now most of the world has moved past buying and selling ownership of

"If a country wants a control of people in another country acquiring that
control will involve a war."

There was a time when kings and queens' title over land included title over
the people of that land. When land was exchanged between kings, so to were
the people exchanged. They had no legitimate say.

In the past few hundred years that changed in some parts of the world. A
people's identity was intertwined with a national territory, a people's will
was expressed through a state, and the state had sovereignty over the
territory. Nation-states are an embodiment of the people within them.
They're not for sale.

Consequently, if another country wants sovereign control over another
country, it cannot try to have it without recourse to war. I imagine many
people would quickly agree that settling issues through negotiation is more
civilized than settling issues through war. But, dig deep and one finds
issues over which a people will not negotiate. Is this civilized? Perhaps
not, but without such recourse one's civilization may be lost.


^ v
white wings says:
(Fri Aug 23 07:26:57 2019
wolfguard - So you are saying that it is much more civilized and acceptable to seize land
and kill anyone who objects? Isn*t it nice that we have evolved from crass bloodless commercial
transactions? (Sorry about the odd * and stilted language - the Board will not take iPad
apostrophes.). Maybe we should move back.

Trump saw an opportunity that the other side might never even have thought of. They are losing
money that could be used for Danish citizens, and they have a smaller economy. We could use the
geographical footprint and the rare earths. So he asked. I suspect they recoiled in stronger terms
than weve seen in the news, given his reaction, and given that they still expect us to stand between
Greenland and any other power that might want to move in. I*d actually hate to do that to the
people in Greenland if they are happy as they are - subjecting them to the whims of our current
politics, our tourists littering their clean country, and the commercial carpetbaggers that would move
in. But he asked politely, and Denmark and Greenland have been made aware of other possibilities.
I don*t think that the idea deserved instant derision.

^ v
wolfguard says:
(Fri Aug 23 05:46:55 2019

Maslow's hierarchy can be applied to societies. As people find sustainable
ways to meet their economic needs they turn to social, political, and
spiritual ones and groups might conflict over the specifics.

White Wings,

For now most of the world has moved past buying and selling sovereign control
over territory. If a country wants a piece of another country acquiring it
will involve a war. OTOH, many countries allow foreign entities to buy
domestic real estate. Rich countries have been buying agricultural land in
poor countries. OTO-OH, these poor countries still have sovereignty over the
acquired land.


^ v
white wings says:
(Fri Aug 23 04:36:47 2019
Happy Birthday AjO, Gileslover, Sax Man, and Willow Worshiper!

wolfguard - I'm pretty sure you are verging on heresy. If you aren't careful, you will find vortex-believers on your trail, and not meaning sweetness and love. Dunno about the ley believers. There aren't Druids involved with those, are there?

DaddyCatALSO - I'll go with wolfguard about it being your universe, but be careful how you speak of the Prophet or his horse, lest you find yourself under a fatwa.

Christopher Marlowe - I hope the learning was (a) profound and (b) over for the evening. *g*

Harry Truman was also interested in buying Greenland. It wasn't unthinkable. The main stumbling block would be the inhabitants. There's too much tradition there. It might be a good property to have, but I think the current Greenlanders(?) would regard being introduced to our political system and culture as a cruel and unusual act.

I think that the problem was that the Danish prime minister was pretty dismissive. She could have found a nice way to say no. Trump understands that in negotiations. She might have to learn the same way that Trudeau did that a lack of courtesy isn't productive. You know, the same thing they accused Trump of not knowing. But it will all blow over.

^ v
Trivia Girl says:
(Fri Aug 23 02:40:32 2019
Late to my own trivia party!

Sunnydale's Trivial Pursuit

Category: Literature
Question: What is the first book
Stephen King wrote?
Answer: Carrie

Trivia master: notsoShyGirl
Trivia Close enuf: Agent Cooper!

^ v
ChristopherMarlowe says:
(Fri Aug 23 00:26:02 2019
Good wvwning beta! I am at a
training session amd i am learning

^ v
DaddyCatALSO says:
(Thu Aug 22 18:25:34 2019
wolfguard Well, I've found it tends to be a very frequent case that when most, very much not all, people have a functionally sustainable and comfortable life situation they can maintain with ordinary effort, they usually end up concentrating on it.
Not sure my New Earth and two Old Earths (Burned and Unburned) can genenrate a literary work, but if we lived ina universe wher emagic lamps existed, (and I'm glad we don't) or actually, since this isn't really a 3-wishes thing, Marvel Comics' The Shaper or the Cosmic Cube, if I had the opportunity I'd really do it and let the billions of chips fall and fall and fall

^ v
wolfguard says:
(Thu Aug 22 17:41:40 2019
Edited: Thu Aug 22 17:42:33 2019

"... So presumably..."

Potentially dangerous words when applied by a person from one culture to folks
of another culture. But's it your fictional world and the author is god. *g*

RE: How much for Greenland?

To the modern ear it may sound whacky, but for centuries it wasn't an uncommon
practice. Consider the Louisiana Purchase - or Alaska.


^ v
Agent Cooper says:
(Thu Aug 22 15:59:05 2019
Trivia Girl: I thought he wrote the "The Long Walk" first. Or that was the first story he got published anyway. Which is a short story, and he used a pen name "Richard Bachman"

^ v
DaddyCatALSO says:
(Thu Aug 22 14:21:50 2019
Yesterday Trivia Q. why that guest star of all the others is the focus of a q.?

wolfguard white wings It's not a marker so much as the Prophet's horse actually stood on that piece of rock when he was caught up. So presumably it would carry the sacredness with it. Whereas for the Jews it's the latitude, longitude, a nd elevation, so if I replace the rock layer with a composite material it should still work.
And as unmollified as they might start out being, once PA & Hamas finish fighting amongst themselves they'll look around and it will hit them they finally have their own country (Abbas would presumably say his troops up north will only "watch over them to prevent outside interference.")and need to get about organizing it. And trying to sail or fly to Israel a nd make trouble at the original Temple Mount, would be 1-impractical in the face of doing that in a larger country with lots of epeoplel dedicated to keeping the peace 2- would just make Palestinian citizens face restrictions if thye want to travel there for peaceful pilgrimages to Hebron.

Christopher Marlowe wolfguard The term "being serious" when applied to the statements of "Resident Rump" has a different meaning than when applied to statements by other people.

^ v
notsoShyGirl says:
(Thu Aug 22 14:14:19 2019
Trivia Girl
Carrie, according to

^ v
Trivia Girl says:
(Thu Aug 22 13:19:40 2019
Sunnydale's Trivial Pursuit

Category: Literature
Question: What is the first book Stephen King wrote?

^ v
TheBirthdayGnomette says:
(Thu Aug 22 13:06:53 2019
Today Thursday, August 22nd 2019 C.E.

We have FIVE (5Birthdays!

Sax Man
Willow Worshiper

Happy Birthday from the Bronze, to MissiAjO, Gileslover, Sax Man, Willow Worshiper, Xandra

Angel: If I'm not back in a couple of hours Gunn: You're dead, we're screwed, end of the world. 'Inside Out'

to be added to the birthday list, please email

^ v
wolfguard says:
(Thu Aug 22 07:16:27 2019
Christopher Marlowe,

Just read an article on Trump and Greenland in the US edition of The
. It offered a few reasons, but focused on rare-earths which are a
set of related chemical elements that are critical in making various
electronic devices and systems. China controls most rare-earth deposits and
has used control of exports them to coerce other countries to bend to its

Once upon a time, a country offering to buy foreign territory to incorporate
into its own system would not be unusual. Trump sees a possible solution to a
problem and thinks to buy it.


^ v
wolfguard says:
(Thu Aug 22 06:49:42 2019
White Wings,

A vortex is just a ley line chasing its tail. *g*

Christopher Marlowe,

I've seen those headlines, but haven't read any of them.


^ v
white wings says:
(Thu Aug 22 03:25:29 2019
wolfguard - Ley lines? Pffft! It's all about the vortexes I was informed by the internet that although "vortices" is the correct plural, one usually says "vortexes" when speaking of the plural of a spiritual energy vortex such as we have at Sedona or at the pyramids.

Christopher Marlowe - More there than here, I'm afraid. *g*

^ v
ChristopherMarlowe says:
(Thu Aug 22 02:55:55 2019
wolfguard I don't think
anybody can tell if Trump is
serious about this Greenland

^ v
ChristopherMarlowe says:
(Thu Aug 22 02:15:56 2019
Anyone hereabouts?

^ v
Trivia Girl says:
(Thu Aug 22 00:07:09 2019
Sunnydale's Trivial Pursuit

Category: Angel
Question: What season 1 character
did Tamara Gorski play?
Answer: Rebecca

Trivia master: notsoShyGirl

^ v
wolfguard says:
(Wed Aug 21 23:42:46 2019
Edited: Wed Aug 21 23:44:30 2019
White Wings,

"Thou canst not stir a flower, without troubling of a star."

- Francis Thompson

"Everything is connected!" - Willow, Phoebe, Piper, Paige, Prue, etc.

And in the end, it's all about Ley lines.

OMG! There're the antipodal implications to consider. :(



^ v
white wings says:
(Wed Aug 21 23:34:24 2019
Happy Birthday bhd, Clmtplr, Isolde, Jodie*, MintMist, RD, Todd McIntosh, and Wolfen Moondaughter !

wolfguard, DaddyCatALSO - It may depend on whether it's the ground or the latitude/longitude that is sacred. If the former, then slicing off the top and moving it should be sufficient. If the former, is it because it has some directional relationship to Heaven or because it is also supposed to be Temple Mount with the additional fillip of irritating another religion?

One can only imagine the fluttering in the dovecotes caused by General Gordon when he declared that the Tomb was in the wrong place. But it did create an additional location for tours.

Portals could potentially be attached to a location or an object, and in some cases just to a chant. The Sunnydale Hellmouth appeared to be pinned to a location.

^ v
wolfguard says:
(Wed Aug 21 18:41:14 2019
Edited: Wed Aug 21 18:44:13 2019

Moving the structure may not appease the Palestinians. Consider a monument
might not be important in and of itself, but might serves as a means: Here. In
this place. On this spot. Something big happened. Still happens. Treasure it.

Moving the marker doesn't move "The Place".

ETA: Just ask the Mayor. Why is Sunnydale important to him? It's on a
hellmouth. *g*


^ v
DaddyCatALSO says:
(Wed Aug 21 18:33:48 2019
wolfguard white wings lostinamerica Agent Cooper ShadowQuest I ran across the first mention a few years ago that some fundies are using selective breeding to recreate the "red heifer without blemish" whose ashes were supposedly used to consecrate the Temple during its various Solomonic, "Ezraic," and Maccabean-Herodian rebuildings as they r egard the "breed" as "extinct." Harry Turtledove's novel *Alpha and Omega* goes into a lot of detail on how they search out this wonder and preserve it until the time has come for the sacrifice and how they find ritually pure priests to perform the sacrifice.
If I ever find my magic lamp a nd wish us to New Earth I'll bypass the problem by recreating Herod's Temple as it would have looked had it ever been finished and it'll show up full of Sadducees & Pharisees and Zealots who won't know anything has happened. It'll be on the Temple Mount at the correct height above ground.
To keep the Palestinians happy, I'll cut off the top of the Mount as it is now, with Dome of the Rock and its hoofprints and the Al-Aqsa Mosque and plop them down ona new island nation in the middle of the expanded Mediterranean where the PA, Hamas Hezbollah, Assad, and th3e Sinai insurgents can work out whatever they wish

^ v
Agent Cooper-Who Only Eats Hamburger Made From UnBlemished Cows says:
(Wed Aug 21 14:31:56 2019
Shadowquest: Are those cows, or wines?

^ v
notsoShyGirl says:
(Wed Aug 21 13:20:20 2019
Trivia Girl
Rebecca Lowell

^ v
Trivia Girl says:
(Wed Aug 21 13:14:31 2019
Sunnydale's Trivial Pursuit

Category: Angel
Question: What season 1 character did Tamara Gorski play?

^ v
TheBirthdayGnomette says:
(Wed Aug 21 13:07:10 2019
Today Wednesday, August 21st 2019 C.E.

We have EIGHT (8) Birthdays!

Todd McIntosh - the makeup supervisor
Wolfen Moondaughter

Happy Birthday from the Bronze, to bhd, Clmtplr, Isolde, Jodie*, MintMist, RD
Todd McIntosh, Wolfen Moondaughter

Never send a minion to do a god's work. Glory, 'Blood Ties''

to be added to the birthday list, please email

^ v
ChristopherMarlowe says:
(Wed Aug 21 12:59:17 2019
Good morning beta!

^ v
wolfguard says:
(Wed Aug 21 08:57:28 2019
Christopher Marlowe,

In the US, monetary policy is in the hands of the Federal Reserve ("The
Fed"). The Fed is our "central bank" and conducts monetary policy.
1 The Fed's three big tools are the buying and selling of
securities in the market, setting reserve requirements, and setting the
discount rate. The discount rate is the rate it charges member banks for

The amount of money in the economy is a major constraint on economic
activity. The more money, the more potential for economic activity. If an
actor wants to buy or invest and doesn't have the money saved to do it, then
one option is to borrow. Interest is the price of borrowing and the amount
of borrowing is usually inversely related to the interest rate: high rates,
less borrowing; low rates, more borrowing.

So the Fed lowers interest rates when it is trying to entice people to spend
money which sustains or increases economic activity. If the Fed is aiming
for X amount of activity and it's not happening at Y rates, then what can it
do - it can try lowering the rate some more. But what happens when you reach
zero and people are still not spending enough to create the economic
activity the government wants? One answer was quantitative easing, "QE".

The reason why low interest rates or QE is not as effective as desired is
because other factors affect spending decisions. You can lead a horse to
water, but you can't make the horse drink.

Another problem with QE is there's a potential for inflation. When the Fed
buys an asset from some institution to add money to the economy how does it
do it?

- Add $100,000,000 to Sunnydale Bank's account,please. Thank you.

It's a legal fiction. Nothing real has been added to the economy, but now
the Sunnydale Bank has $100,000,00 worth of claims on the economy and that
has the potential to increase economic demand. OTOH, if total demand becomes
greater than the resources available to satisfy the demands, then inflation
arises. Currently both employment and money supply is high, so we should be
seeing high inflation. We don't. What gives?

One possibility is some of the employment is in low-wage jobs. A lot of
people are employed, but some are not making a lot of money so there's not
the amount of spending one might expect with the high employment. Another
possibility is a lot of the money is not being invested in producing things,
but in buying preexisting stuff, such as real estate. Both possibilities can
exist together and other factors can be in play.

Monetary policy can provide the seeds, but it can't create the seed bed.

1 The Fed is not actually a part of the federal government. A
president nominates a person to be chairman and the Senate decides whether
or not to confirm the person. This is about all the direct power the federal
government has over the Fed. It's designed this way to try to keep the Fed
free from political interference when it's making policy. Presidents try to
cajole the Fed to do this or that. Congress tries to influence the Fed by
threatening to legislate it out of existence if it doesn't do this or that.

2 There are many interest rates and they influence each other.


^ v
ShadowQuest says:
(Wed Aug 21 06:27:05 2019
Zoom through

Late to the party (as per usual) but...

Red Poll
Polish Red
Swedish Red
North Devon
Belmont Red (Hey! He has his own
Santa Gertrudris
Red Steppe
Lincoln Red
Aussie Red
Red Sindhi

Does that help?

Zoom, zoom

^ v
white wings says:
(Wed Aug 21 03:25:55 2019
Happy Birthday Kylia, Liddie, LouWho, Raptamama, StrangestGirl, and zorrem !

lostinamerica - Finding an unblemished cow might be really hard. Even if you found one with a perfect hair coat, that didn't change color with age, they live outdoors and they aren't that brilliant. Mostly they survive by being tough not uninjured. The injuries are apt to produce different colored hair when they heal. At least it happens that way with other animals. Keeping them in padded stalls isn't much of a life. Then, since they'd have to keep their horns, keeping everything around them unblemished could be interesting. It's a lot of work to trigger a prophecy. Almost as hard as Shanshuing. And then one has to remember that prophecies are tricky things. ;-)

Oh my, I'm tired. I didn't think I worked that hard, but I'm sleepy. It must have been the stress of going off to work this morning knowing that my internet and cable were both out, most likely because there's a huge trenching machine going around preparing the way for city sewer. When I called later, they assured me that there were crews on site. At any rate, both services reappeared by the time I got home.

^ v
ChristopherMarlowe says:
(Wed Aug 21 03:17:21 2019
wolfguard From what I gather
from that article, QE is mixed at
best for stimulating the economy.
It is a tool, but maybe not the
most effective one?

^ v
wolfguard says:
(Wed Aug 21 02:56:59 2019
Christopher Marlowe,

Understanding "QE" is vital in understanding what has been happening since the
Great Recession began in the fall of 2008. The practice of QE, both in the US
and in other countries, will have consequences that will be with us for years.
If a presidential candidate doesn't know what QE means, then they haven't
prepared to be president. Here's a link ...


^ v
ChristopherMarlowe says:
(Wed Aug 21 02:08:48 2019
Edited: Wed Aug 21 02:17:16 2019
wolfguard NO, I was not kidding, I honestly never heard of QE before.
The most attention I tend to pay with financial news is the Dow Jones going
up/down or the unemployment rate.

^ v
wolfguard says:
(Wed Aug 21 01:31:08 2019
Edited: Wed Aug 21 01:32:19 2019
Christopher Marlowe,

Are you kidding? The Federal Reserve and other central banks have been doing
QE for around ten years. The usual monetary policy technique for stimulating
borrowing1 is to lower the interest rate. But what happens when
you reach zero or near-zero interest rates? The answer was for a central
bank to buy assets, usually bonds. The theory is the sellers of the bonds
will use the cash to consume or invest, thus stimulating the economy.

Oh, there is a place to go past a zero interest rate. A bank can charge
people and organizations a fee for holding their money. It's called a
negative interest rate. Some folks are willing to pay such a fee, because
they want the assurance they'll be able to get their money back when they
want it.

1 The borrowed money would be used to invest or consume. One
problem with both lowering interest rates and QE is the central bank usually
doesn't have much influence on how the money is spent - or if it is. Some
folks use the money to invest in other financial assets.


^ v
CristopherMarlowe says:
(Wed Aug 21 01:04:08 2019
wolfguard I learned a new
word today, and from Trump!
'Quantitative Easing'! Colored me

^ v
Trivia Girl says:
(Wed Aug 21 00:21:30 2019
Sunnydale's Trivial Pursuit

Category: Buffy
Question: What was Ted's last
name in Ted?
Answer: Buchanan

Trivia Master: wolfguard!
Trivia Serial kIller: Agent

Hi lostinamerica!

^ v
lostinamerica says:
(Tue Aug 20 23:23:38 2019
Agent Cooper--LOL :)

Trivia Girl--Ted has no last name :D

DaddyCatALSO, wolfguard, white wings--I've seen red cows too,
and it seems it wouldn't be too hard to find one without blemish--
I mean, they're just laying out there in the field most of the day ;)

^ v
wolfguard says:
(Tue Aug 20 17:40:46 2019
Edited: Tue Aug 20 17:42:45 2019
Trivia Girl,


ETA: Notice how I didn't tarry with the original post? One word. Succinct.
Why? You got to answer quick to beat notsoShyGirl. *g*


^ v
Agent Cooper says:
(Tue Aug 20 16:04:47 2019
Trivia Girl: umm...Bundy?

^ v
DaddyCatALSO says:
(Tue Aug 20 14:10:21 2019
ShadowQuest I knew you were talking about e the armies; I was just wondering why you considered the bad guy non-obvious.*g

^ v
Trivia Girl says:
(Tue Aug 20 13:31:12 2019
Sunnydale's Trivial Pursuit

Category: Buffy
Question: What was Ted's last name in Ted?

^ v
TheBirthdayGnomette says:
(Tue Aug 20 13:23:53 2019
Today Tuesday, August 20th 2019 C.E.

We have SEVEN (7) Birthdays!

James Marsters - the vampire Spike

Happy Birthday from the Bronze, to James Marsters, Kylia, Liddie, LouWho, Raptamama, StrangestGirl, zorrem

Lydia: But you are a vampire. Spike: If I'm not, I'm gonna be pissed about drinking all that blood. 'Checkpoint''

to be added to the birthday list, please email

^ v
ChristopherMarlowe says:
(Tue Aug 20 13:18:37 2019
Good morning beta!

^ v
ShadowQuest says:
(Tue Aug 20 06:18:07 2019
Edited: Tue Aug 20 06:21:15 2019
Sinus-headache zoom through

DaddyCatALSO I thought my
point was obvious. *g*

I was talking about the armor of the
various armies. When one hears
"armor" they usually immediately
think "plate armor," or "knight's
armor." A full suit, in other
words. So the obvious armies in
LotR would be the elves and men -
Rohirrim and Gondorian.

However, the Easterlings had armor,
as did the Haradrim and the Uruk-
hai. Granted the Uruks had much
more primitive armor, but they had
helms and some form of upper body
and leg protection.

The armor designers spent a lot of
time researching different types of
armor, from all over the world, and
incorporated different aspects into
the armor (in whatever form it took)
for the various armies. The
Haradrim, for example, drew heavily
from African tribal armor. They
thought about where each army was
from - desert, mountains, forests -
and what type of materials they'd
have to work with, and what amount
of armor they would need.

Same goes for the weaponry. Elves,
for example, had very organic,
flowing armor and weapons. The
dwarves were more robust - thicker,
heavier weapons and armor. The
Rohirrim were horse people, so their
armor was more lightweight, and
their weapons were designed for use
on horseback. The guards of Minas
Tirith had much more ceremonial
armor - the size of the wings on
their helms denoted their rank:

Zoom, zoom

^ v
white wings says:
(Tue Aug 20 00:30:05 2019
Happy Birthday angelsbb, Angelsdust, Angelus16, Anne #2, Englfish1@, and Pnthr44!

Agent Cooper - Winding slowly o'er the lea?

^ v
wolfguard says:
(Tue Aug 20 00:00:31 2019
Agent Cooper,


Till the cows come home.



^ v
ChristopherMarlowe says:
(Mon Aug 19 23:20:05 2019
Edited: Tue Aug 20 01:40:18 2019
Agent Cooper Red cows are either angry cows or Russian cows,
in any case, I head the warnings of any red cow.

^ v
Trivia Girl says:
(Mon Aug 19 23:05:20 2019
Sunnydale's Trivial Pursuit

Category: Animals
Question: Checkers the dog was
associated with which US President?
Answer: Nixon

Trivia Masters: notsoShyGirl
Trivia Comedian: Agent Cooper

^ v
Agent Cooper says:
(Mon Aug 19 20:50:36 2019
Red Cows at night, farmers delight! Red Cows at morning, farmers take warning! ??

^ v
DaddyCatALSO says:
(Mon Aug 19 18:19:12 2019
wolfguard ooo,ouch *weg

^ v
wolfguard says:
(Mon Aug 19 17:59:56 2019
Edited: Mon Aug 19 18:01:32 2019
Trivia Girl,

Just pulled from Google search result ...

..."A man down in Texas heard Pat on the radio mention the fact that our
two youngsters would like to have a dog", Nixon explained about a campaign
gift from a supporter from Texas, which came in the form of a cocker spaniel.

"Our little girl, Tricia, the 6-year-oldnamed it Checkers. And you know, the
kids, like all kids, love the dog and I just want to say this right now, that
regardless of what they say about it, were gonna keep it."


^ v
wolfguard says:
(Mon Aug 19 17:50:20 2019

I have seen reddish color cows and have heard that story about the red cow

However, the question is whether or not these cows produce red milk. *g*


^ v
Agent Cooper says:
(Mon Aug 19 15:41:46 2019
Trivia Girl: Zaphod Breeblebrox, President of the Milky Way Galaxy and perhaps more importantly, inventor of the Pan Galactic Gargle Blaster.

^ v
notsoShyGirl says:
(Mon Aug 19 15:12:23 2019
Trivia Girl

^ v
DaddyCatALSO says:
(Mon Aug 19 14:11:55 2019
Edited: Mon Aug 19 14:13:04 2019
wolfguard white wings lostinamerica Cows can have reddish coats, always with whit e or other markings. Some who plan the reconstruction of t he Temple in Jerusalem are looking for a spotless red heifer to purify it afterwards

ShadowQuest Not sure what you mean by obvious in connection with LOTR armies and why any of them could be non-obvious

^ v
Trivia Girl says:
(Mon Aug 19 13:54:20 2019
Sunnydale's Trivial Pursuit

Category: Animals
Question: Checkers the dog was
associated with which US President?

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